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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5261295" data-attributes="member: 42582">Sorry, but I have to agree with Ariosto on this one - what you're describing is the absence of build.Ariosto, I agree with you about both these points - that Chaosium games rely heavily on the GM to mediate action resolution despite the presence of a reasonably extensive skill list, and that the fact that there is no metagaming of the character build in those games makes it a comparative non-issue compared to games like HERO or RM or 3E or 4e where there is a metagame-rich character build aspect to the game.I think that Classic Traveller also fits your description of the Chaosium games.Personally I prefer an RPG with a character-build metagame (and I say this as someone who mostly GMs, not plays) which is why I favour RM over RQ for my traditional ultra-simulationist fantasy RPG, even though RQ is in many respects more elegant.This, on the other hand, I disagree with. The 1st ed DMG stresses very strongly that the GM is responsible for the magic items that make it into his/her gameworld, and hence are available for PCs to obtain. It's true that it is up to the players to actually play through the game in order to obtain the items, but at that level of general description the same is true of 4e - even if the GM is placing items based entirely on play wish-lists, the game still has to actually be played for those items to be obtained.Furthermore, even in hardcore AD&D play, I think for many groups there is a default assumption that the players - or at least some of them - will succeed - at least to some extent - in raiding the dungeon and making off with its treasures. And as I've said, it is the GM who places those treasures.Now, there are other features of AD&D play that produce marked differences from the 4e experience - that I don't deny for a minute - but I don't think the best way to draw these distinctions is by reference to who "provides the items".</blockquote>

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