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<blockquote data-quote="Kaisoku" data-source="post: 5469908" data-attributes="member: 58447">I think some of you might want to qualify what your stating.&quot;Bad at Stealth&quot; implies &quot;bad at stealth in general&quot;. Which is absolutely false for the Rogue. He can get a very high check for Stealth, and perform stealth actions with less penalties/faster.&quot;Bad at entering stealth in combat&quot; is probably what you meant, which is by no means the &quot;only&quot; yardstick for measuring Stealth effectiveness.Rangers are great in their chosen terrain. Which is pretty limited until you get to much higher levels (typically 1 to 2 for most APs, maybe a third right at the end). If you actually look at it, they don't even get Hide in Plain Sight until after most APs finish (17th vs ~15 for most APs). Even Camouflage is nearing the tail end of most APs at 12th level.And when they aren't in their terrain, they are pretty much as good as anyone who might have it as a class skill, that's it. And there isn't a spell to alleviate this like there is for Favored Enemy.Also, the Ranger can (and probably will) wear Medium armor, since unless he's specifically ranged focus, he's going to need the armor for up close encounters. Likely a higher check penalty in the earlier levels.Rogues have a multitude of bonuses to stealth between archetypes and talents, and they can get them early on in the game (like 1st-3rd levels).And if you really, really, REALLY need that &quot;in combat&quot; effectiveness, getting one level of Shadowdancer (a primarily rogue prestige class) gives you a more universal version of Hide in Plain sight, long before the Ranger ever gets it (say, 7th level instead of 17th).To say that the Rogue &quot;isn't good at stealth&quot; is narrow minded and misleading.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kaisoku, post: 5469908, member: 58447"] I think some of you might want to qualify what your stating. "Bad at Stealth" implies "bad at stealth in general". Which is absolutely false for the Rogue. He can get a very high check for Stealth, and perform stealth actions with less penalties/faster. "Bad at entering stealth in combat" is probably what you meant, which is by no means the "only" yardstick for measuring Stealth effectiveness. Rangers are great [I]in their chosen terrain[/I]. Which is pretty limited until you get to much higher levels (typically 1 to 2 for most APs, maybe a third right at the end). If you actually look at it, they don't even get Hide in Plain Sight until after most APs finish (17th vs ~15 for most APs). Even Camouflage is nearing the tail end of most APs at 12th level. And when they aren't in their terrain, they are pretty much as good as anyone who might have it as a class skill, that's it. And there isn't a spell to alleviate this like there is for Favored Enemy. Also, the Ranger can (and probably will) wear Medium armor, since unless he's specifically ranged focus, he's going to need the armor for up close encounters. Likely a higher check penalty in the earlier levels. Rogues have a multitude of bonuses to stealth between archetypes and talents, and they can get them early on in the game (like 1st-3rd levels). And if you really, really, REALLY need that "in combat" effectiveness, getting one level of Shadowdancer (a primarily rogue prestige class) gives you a [I]more universal[/I] version of Hide in Plain sight, long before the Ranger ever gets it (say, 7th level instead of 17th). To say that the Rogue "isn't good at stealth" is narrow minded and misleading. [/QUOTE]

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