Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 586738" data-attributes="member: 3146">I think it's a bad idea. There are already mechanics for determining surprise--mechanics involving spot, listen, hide, move silently, spells and special abilities such as blindsight. There are already mechanics for determining initiative--feats, etc. And the mechanics fro reflex saves are different from both.In the example of a rogue with a bow waiting by a door for an orc to come through it, the proper way to determine surprise would be this:1. Did the Rogue know the orc was coming or was behind the door? (Opposed move silently by the orc against the rogue's listen at -5 for being behind a door and -1 for each 10 feet between him and the orc). Alternately, if the rogue had been in gaseous form and observed the orc approaching before he moved behind the door and readied his ambush it might be automatic. However, if the rogue didn't know the orc was coming, the door opening might catch him by surprise.2. Did the orc know that the rogue was waiting or was behind the door? (Opposed move silently by the rogue (at bonusses for being still) against listen by the orc (at -5 for being behind a door and -1/10 feet of distance)).If the orc knew that the rogue was there (perhaps informed by his Shaman whose familiar observed the rogue sneaking in) but the rogue didn't hear the orc coming, the rogue is surprised.If the orc didn't know the rogue was there but the rogue knew about the orc, then the orc is surprised.If either both of them were aware or one of each other or neither of them were aware of each other, there is no surprise round--initiative is rolled normally.Initiative is what is used to determine who has the situational awareness and reflexes to act first once both parties are aware of each other.I think that this is a much better system for surprise and initiative than the one you are proposing for several reasons:1. In surprise, the primary factor being modelled is awareness not reflexes. It doesn't matter how quick you are if you don't know about your opponent when he starts attacking. Consequently, spot and listen skills and certain magics (like Foresight) are the way to deal with this.2. Initiative is not simply reflexes but also situational awareness. It is also something that every character who engages in combat should be equally good at (all other things being equal). Fighters want to land the first sword blow, wizards the first spell, monks the first punch, etc. There's no reason why rogues and bards should be better at moving quickly other than their (typically) higher dexterities and proclivity towards taking Improved Initiative.3. Using Reflex saves to simulate either spot and listen or initiative rolls leads to some awfully odd conclusions: A cloak of Resistance makes more of a difference to your initiative rolls than gloves of dexterity. Who knew? The Cloak of Resistance also makes your eyes and ears better. Who'd have thunk it? A paladin's Divine Grace not only means his god protects him; it also means that his god makes him better at spotting foes and react more quickly to situations. (Not completely counterintuitive but probably overpowered).</blockquote>

Verification