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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TreChriron" data-source="post: 8098398" data-attributes="member: 5046">So - PF2 combat and game play don't seem terribly complicated to me. I've been at this 40 years now and I GM games like GURPS and HERO. There are not a ton of complicated procedures (maybe figuring modifiers to a roll having the potential for most "points of handling"). What is unfortunate is many gamers look at the breadth of a game and measure complexity on choices. There is a LOT of choices in PF2, but in my experience players like choices. I like choices when I play!Another thing to consider is classic level-based games are not designed for you to digest every option upfront. Sure, there is a whole segment of the gaming community that LOVES system mastery, planning out character builds, and getting the "perfect combo" of choices. That is a valid engagement and I applaud people who love to do it. Just like the segment of gamers who love to build things (the tinkerers as it were). But judging a game's complexity on availability of choices is misleading.Personally, I determine complexity by a few things;1) How often do the players have to engage the system in order to accomplish "the thing".2) How often do players need to reference the rules in order to remember "the thing".3) How long do the procedures take to resolve "the thing".PF2 character creation at 1st level is not overly complex. I could argue that the process is more streamlined than 3.x days. For the build masters, it's more complex because there are TONS of options to chew on. That doesn't mean the game is complex, that just means system mastery is harder to obtain. You don't need system mastery to enjoy a game.There is more clarification around the common procedures in PF2 (it's obvious the devs learned much about explaining things in a concise manner in hopes of reducing the debates or interpretations of the rules...). However, I don't see how combat or skill checks or using magic are any more or less complicated than 5e/PF2/PF1/3.x. You can easily add some notes on a character sheet for a new player, help them focus one level at a time, and build them into system mastery by level 6. By level 9 they should likely have the same fluency with the rules to plan out the next 9 levels with the same proficiency the master builder came in with.In summary, I think many gamers see lots of options as making the game complex. This is misleading. The game is no more or less complex than other RPGs in its category. You likely won't have the same system mastery when you begin, but that is hardly necessary to enjoy the game if you want to take it one level at a time. Just my two cents...</blockquote>

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