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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vael" data-source="post: 8100276" data-attributes="member: 57043">Thank you for clarifying, your initial comment read too much like "get gud" gatekeeping for my taste.My struggle with P2, however, hasn't really been satisfied. Is P2 too complex, the answer seems to be, "not if you like complexity", which isn't really helpful. I don't mind complexity, but what am I getting in return, or, to rephrase my conflict with P2:"What benefits come from the higher complexity of P2 and do they outweigh the costs of it being a more complicated game?"I certainly can enjoy complex games. I look forward to post-covid to get in a game of Twilight Imperium, I enjoy intricate combos and I play a lot of EDH in Magic the Gathering. But those games, the complexity forms a puzzle to be solved, and the examples of complexity that have been presented in this thread feel like busywork instead. Playing a mini-game to identify a magic item or heal a PC haven't been presented here as interesting puzzles, merely a chance to fill out some tax forms. And, for those that like that, sure, no judgment, I just find this is a case where the benefits do not outweight the costs for me.Does the increase in complexity provide a richer tactical environment in combat? Eh? My experience is limited, but my initial read says no. Combat is swingier, a lucky roll here or not can trivialize an encounter, or make it a lot harder, but that's not what I'd call a richer tactical game. The gold standard for me in tactical play is 4e, a game I'd argue is still simpler than P2, but provides a more interesting combat experience.Does the increase in complexity allow for more varied character creation options? Probably yes, but then I've been reading a lot of rules-light narrative systems, like Cypher or Fate Core and tbh, the sky is kinda the limit there. Sure, those PCs aren't as mechanically unique, but again, we run into the issue of learning said mechanics, which increases the barrier to entry.I guess, for me, having a complex game for the sake of being a complex game is not inherently valuable. But, I am trying to keep an open mind, and I have not made any final judgments about Pathfinder 2 yet.</blockquote>

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