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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kenada" data-source="post: 8100871" data-attributes="member: 70468">After taking a break for lunch (and to troubleshoot network issues …), I thought I’d circle back and try to contribute something more in the spirit of constructive discourse. To be honest, I’m not actually sure what the topic of this thread is other than something something complexity. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😅" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f605.png" title="Grinning face with sweat    :sweat_smile:" data-shortname=":sweat_smile:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />First question: is Pathfinder 2e a complex game? Yes, definitely. It’s very obviously not rules light, and it’s not trying to be. I should hope that’s patently obvious and not controversial. Yes, I’ve argued that the core is simple and streamlined, but the subsystems built on top of that create complexity.Second question: is it worth it? Yes. For the most part, the complexity creates interesting choices and works in the game’s favor. Without all the feats, character building would be less interesting. Without the dependency on team play, combat would be boring. Exploration Mode seems to be the rough point, with some of the activities not always working well depending on your game.Third question: is it without problems? Oh, certainly not. We’ve discussed some of them here already. I’d also add that while moving system mastery from character building to combat is probably more accessible, it’s rough on players coming from other systems with different assumptions. I also think Exploration Mode needs an iteration or two to get it really working as well as encounter mode does.Relatedly, but not specifically a systemic issue, the CRB could also do more to help players learn the game. There are parts where it’s just not doing enough to help players form a decent mental model. I also think it could do more to teach players how to run a game. Just don’t assume they know how to run a dungeon! (<a href="https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/43568/roleplaying-games/game-structures-addendum-system-matters" target="_blank">Not that this is a problem unique to PF2</a>.) The Beginner Box may help here, but then that means it should have been available at launch (like 5e did).If someone asked me if they should try PF2, I’d say yes, but I’d qualify that by saying they should play with someone who already knows the game well. That will help them focus on what they need as a player to get going. Also, if they’ve played other games (particularly PF1), you definitely need to point out where PF2 does something different. That’s a problem I still encounter with my group 20+ sessions into our campaign. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😂" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f602.png" title="Face with tears of joy    :joy:" data-shortname=":joy:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /></blockquote>

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