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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 8105462" data-attributes="member: 957">Not sure if you and I are coming from the same place, but this statement very much applies to me.The character's background as a blacksmith is a narrative concept.The character being a priest of the god of blacksmiths is a narrative concept.Narrative concepts are not the first priority of the MECHANICS of PF2E.The math of PF2E demands compliance with the correct balance points.&nbsp; Then you can fine tune based on narrative.&nbsp; But you can't get outside the math allowances which were established before you ever knew if your character would be a blacksmith priest or&nbsp; a scrawny daydreamer rogue who never worked a hard day in his life.This is fundamental to the PF2E mechanics and exists in every aspect of the game.&nbsp; Armor class is an easy to see example.&nbsp; Narrative is largely irrelevant.&nbsp; At X level your AC is expected to be in Y to Z range.&nbsp; You can push the boundaries.&nbsp; But only once the non-narrative preconceptions have put you in the right band.&nbsp; In 3X/PF your AC wants to know about the narrative things.&nbsp; What is your armor, what is your dex, what gear do you have, etc...&nbsp; Everything comes from narrative bits of the character (dodge feat, class abilities, etc) or something that materially exists within the narrative (armor, magic items, etc).&nbsp; Everything comes from the story, with no concern for balance.&nbsp; I can build a character with an AC way ahead of everyone else.&nbsp; Or is way better at Stealth.&nbsp; Or really is a crazy good blacksmith.And I completely agree with you on &quot;no judgement about liking different things.&quot;&nbsp; I know people HATE the Christmas Tree is PF and people hate collecting +1s.&nbsp; I totally respect that.&nbsp; My point is not that PF is fundamentally better than PF2E.&nbsp; My point is that PF2E is fundamentally DIFFERENT than PF.You can say the same words and tell the same story.&nbsp; But the words the players say on top of the mechanics are not what make an RPG ruleset.&nbsp; How that ruleset translates the things that are said into cause and effect is what makes an RPG ruleset.When I write up a character and it doesn't live up to the narrative driven mathematical representation of those ideas, then I'm unhappy before I even start playing.&nbsp; I have that option in other systems in ways that PF2E specifically and intentionally chose to reign in.Clearly, there is a niche of players who find that reigning in to be a godsend.&nbsp; More power to them.&nbsp; But it is still a difference that is important and cuts in both directions.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 8105462, member: 957"] Not sure if you and I are coming from the same place, but this statement very much applies to me. The character's background as a blacksmith is a narrative concept. The character being a priest of the god of blacksmiths is a narrative concept. Narrative concepts are not the first priority of the MECHANICS of PF2E. The math of PF2E demands compliance with the correct balance points. Then you can fine tune based on narrative. But you can't get outside the math allowances which were established before you ever knew if your character would be a blacksmith priest or a scrawny daydreamer rogue who never worked a hard day in his life. This is fundamental to the PF2E mechanics and exists in every aspect of the game. Armor class is an easy to see example. Narrative is largely irrelevant. At X level your AC is expected to be in Y to Z range. You can push the boundaries. But only once the non-narrative preconceptions have put you in the right band. In 3X/PF your AC wants to know about the narrative things. What is your armor, what is your dex, what gear do you have, etc... Everything comes from narrative bits of the character (dodge feat, class abilities, etc) or something that materially exists within the narrative (armor, magic items, etc). Everything comes from the story, with no concern for balance. I can build a character with an AC way ahead of everyone else. Or is way better at Stealth. Or really is a crazy good blacksmith. And I completely agree with you on "no judgement about liking different things." I know people HATE the Christmas Tree is PF and people hate collecting +1s. I totally respect that. My point is not that PF is fundamentally better than PF2E. My point is that PF2E is fundamentally DIFFERENT than PF. You can say the same words and tell the same story. But the words the players say on top of the mechanics are not what make an RPG ruleset. How that ruleset translates the things that are said into cause and effect is what makes an RPG ruleset. When I write up a character and it doesn't live up to the narrative driven mathematical representation of those ideas, then I'm unhappy before I even start playing. I have that option in other systems in ways that PF2E specifically and intentionally chose to reign in. Clearly, there is a niche of players who find that reigning in to be a godsend. More power to them. But it is still a difference that is important and cuts in both directions. [/QUOTE]

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