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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 8107896" data-attributes="member: 957">I don't think it would be productive to drag this thread into this dead horse beating.It is more than fair to claim that without the massive leg up that 4E received by virtue of simply being D&amp;D, it would have not shown up meaningfuly in the ranks of &quot;every single RPG&quot;.&nbsp; So judging it in context is fair.&nbsp; It failed badly.&nbsp; And it failed because way to many people didn't enjoy PLAYING it.&nbsp; You can't blame it on marketing when it was a MASSIVE success on launch.&nbsp; Marketing gets people to the dance.&nbsp; The music and atmosphere get them to stay.&nbsp; A deeply faithful niche fanbase notwithstanding, people left the dance very early.I think the &quot;reaction to 3E&quot; remains a very key point of equivalence between 4E and PF2E and it is very fair to judge them on that.The obsession with staying in a balanced fixed-math design space is dominant in both games.&nbsp; I completely agree with you that they are very dissimilar in detail.&nbsp; But that math core shows up as the foundation of the complaints throughout this thread and elsewhere.&nbsp; Obviously there are people who really love PF2E.&nbsp; And there is no reason to have an issue with that.But PF2E should also be judged in context and it could have had a far bigger dance.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 8107896, member: 957"] I don't think it would be productive to drag this thread into this dead horse beating. It is more than fair to claim that without the massive leg up that 4E received by virtue of simply being D&D, it would have not shown up meaningfuly in the ranks of "every single RPG". So judging it in context is fair. It failed badly. And it failed because way to many people didn't enjoy PLAYING it. You can't blame it on marketing when it was a MASSIVE success on launch. Marketing gets people to the dance. The music and atmosphere get them to stay. A deeply faithful niche fanbase notwithstanding, people left the dance very early. I think the "reaction to 3E" remains a very key point of equivalence between 4E and PF2E and it is very fair to judge them on that. The obsession with staying in a balanced fixed-math design space is dominant in both games. I completely agree with you that they are very dissimilar in detail. But that math core shows up as the foundation of the complaints throughout this thread and elsewhere. Obviously there are people who really love PF2E. And there is no reason to have an issue with that. But PF2E should also be judged in context and it [I]could[/I] have had a far bigger dance. [/QUOTE]

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