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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cabral" data-source="post: 2775135" data-attributes="member: 1193">Before this goes any further. I don't want this to devolve into "I'm right - you're wrong"... as long as it doesn't I'll be happy to explain my position <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />As long as that cash (assuming all costs are appropriate - no discount polymorph at will ioun stones), then this falls into "the norm" therefore, by definition no LA is needed. If, on the other hand, your 3rd level party has 30,000 gp in gear, then an LA is probably in order ...You're right. It's not the same. It's better! You slog through 7 levels as a humie then "accidently" die in front of a druid. One lucky roll later, you've been reincarnated as a bugbear (not to pick on the OP's example <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />) You lose a level but gain 3HD of monstrous humanoid ... voila you are now ECL 10 for the xp of 7th level. If, on the other hand, you had started as a bugbear (and not died), the same 21,000 (7th level for LA+0) would put you at level 3 (class level) + 3 HD +1 LA = ECL 7.Granted for the reincarnated version, it's going to be very boring for a while as in order to gain a level he has to earn 55,000 (ECL 11) - 18,000 (current xp*) = 37,000 xp.*If I recall correctly, losing a level puts you halfway into the lower level.However, on your point about reincarnate being closer to polymorph than being the creature from the begining, conceptually you are right. Mechanicly you are wrong. A 3rd level bugbear rogue is a 3rd level bugbear rogue is a 3rd level bugbear rogue, no matter how he came to be one. It doesn't matter if one started out as one or if he was reincarnated into one. It's the same. (Mechanically speaking)While I am very forgiving as to what consitutes unbalanced in my games, it's because I know my players won't abuse it, not because I don't give it much thought.  If you feel I am ignoring balance considerations, perhaps I am having a difficult time conveying my point because it is so apparent to me.I agree with Ianb about the applicability of break enchantment and limited wish. As for wish and miracle, they're 9th level spells... they can do a lot! Not only can they change you back from reincarnate, but they can change you into something else! (See Savage Species) However, note that there is an inherent balancing factor (beyond the 17th level caster requirement): XP cost. If you cast it enough, it'll knock you down so much on XP that you might as well have an LA...Not exactly... polymorph doesn't change mental stats so reincarnated characters could still be enjoying the benefit to mental abilities ... also, a bugbear polymorphed into an elf can better fit in socially....If you think polymorph any object is fun, you should see shapechange.However, my point still stands: Polymorph (and friends) cannot and should not incur a level adjustment for their use. The reason for this is that they are balanced components of a class and are scaled in power for that class at that level. I should hope that polymorph offers some spiffy abilities. you are casting it instead of a metamagic-ed bull's strength.</blockquote>

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