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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scott Christian" data-source="post: 8058468" data-attributes="member: 6901101">Badly written? Really. How?I didn't hand-wave. I was going off what you said. Most of the adventures written are "crap." I concede, I do not know how many you read. But, reading and playing/running an AP can be different, no? What evidence do you need? The fact that D&D is growing in popularity. The fact that it is crushing all other RPG's. The fact that sell millions of the AP's. I mean, if you want numbers, I will try to find them. But then I get the feeling you'll say: "That doesn't support your argument, it only supports the fact that they sell a lot of books." You are correct, I do not have hard evidence. I have no hundred thousand person poll. I have no direct link to WotC specific statement that says; "Buyers love our AP's." What I do have is D&D producing them for over 25 years. My guess is, if something is so awful, they would have stopped. I thought it obvious that these are our opinions. The exact opposite could be said for your claim. You have offered no logic. No evidence. No rationale. No reason. All you presented was a vibe that said AP's are "crap." That the ones you had fun with were so laughable that you made a joke out of them. So they were only good ironically. I offered you to get a 5e AP and deconstruct its terribleness for me. You didn't. Instead you said you would have to charge an hourly wage - and called me ridiculous. Um, that would have been the time for you to offer evidence.This makes me think you haven't used an AP in forever. If you use maps for combat (I do 75% of the time), do you think all combat maps are in the book? The random encounters? The side quests that might help tell an character's individual story and how it ties into the AP? Heck, half the combat areas aren't even in the books. I take time to make these. As for printing, not sure about you, but I don't have access to a 20"x30" printer. I sometimes find flip mats that will work. (That takes time too.) But if I make my map, then I choose to print it out correctly. That means, making it. It can take quite awhile. Printing it at Kinkos or something similar. Picking it up. Etc. All that is time prepping.  Finding minis also means sometimes painting them. But we won't count that time as I rarely do it. But know many DM's that do. And drawing a map in seconds is great for theater-of-the-mind. But not as good for people that like tactical combat. Particularly, when an AP sets up a tactical combat that includes both, environmental hazards, height, and creatures. It takes time, not seconds.That is insulting. But, I won't take it that way. Instead, I will explain what can take so long. When a DM preps for an AP, and wants the AP to be played as intended, here are some of the things that they might do:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Read the entire AP (a couple hours)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Take notes on the things that stand out (an hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Find problem areas especially for those DM's that know their players and find logical or alternative solutions; create those solutions which may involve adding another NPC, a separate section of dungeon, a side quest so things make sense, etc. (2-6 hours depending on how many one has to do)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make maps that might be needed, particularly if you know your players are prone to always wander (2-20 hours depending how detailed you get. Heck I know people on Inkarnate that have over 5,000 hours.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flesh out the settings of the adventure. This is really true for adventures that travel long distances. Maybe two cities or from the desert to the mountains to the sea. Each place they go should feel unique. I often find phrases or words that I will jot down then craft those into part of the setting. I might have a list of ten to twenty for each setting.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Increase the depth of the player hooks. I like to ask players if they want something incorporated into their background. This will play out as a character arc alongside the story arc. I try to create multiple paths for them. Once you have the paths (or vice-a-versa) you need to see where those can fit seamlessly into the plotline. A very simple example, if they are doing a questline for a wealthy merchant. They might be local. Their family might have a business that could prosper from the merchant dealings. So they can take it or throw it away, bringing praise or scorn from their family. (2-6 hours depending on how many players want to do this.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Finding significant NPC (and sometimes others) and writing down phrases they may say. Also adding key descriptors that stand out each time the PC's see them. Then practicing those NPC's. In the car. In the shower. etc. Practice. When I ran Skull & Shackles, I didn't want every pirate saying "Arrr." I wanted them to stand out as individuals. Mannerisms and speech phrases (not always voice) is the way to do this.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Re-read the section prior to playing and tailor it to what the PC's have done so far. Sometimes the best laid plans... So things change. That NPC you had all dressed up and ready to throw a soiree, nope. They hate the PC's now. So instead they challenge them to a bunch of drunken bar contests to show that the PC's are worthless. That takes time. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Creating magic items that are tailored to the players. I get it, giving the cleric +1 Plate is an easy out. But, it's always better if one or two players have something that peaks interest - especially if you can tie it into the storyline. Those take time to craft and often have mini-stories. I like to write mine out. Like when the wizard is taking a bath and he hears singing from his clothes on the floor only to discover it is his new dagger with a mermaid handle. He holds it and voila - he can breathe underwater. Things like this, I feel, help the character attach themselves to the world. I could just say, "You find a +1 dagger of water breathing and cold resistance." But I feel like my players enjoy the surprises a little more when they are tailored to their character's actions, not just stated. It's the show-don't-tell rule. For smaller caches, rolling random tables is fine.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">None of this translates to online material and learning a program for online games. Roll20, for many, has taken a while to learn, especially from the DM side.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I rarely do, but if I use music, then I want to find the perfect piece. Most of the time it is an ambiance piece that directly relates to the story. For example, hearing a local nomadic desert tribe sing across an oasis. I take my time finding the right piece for them to hear. Same is true for pictures, if I show them an image, such as a city. This isn't an always, but it does happen a couple of times during an AP.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Foreshadowing pieces. These, I feel, are soooo important. Players need them. A lot of them. It sometimes helps guide them. Other times it offers clues on how to prepare. And other times they are just cool for the setting. I'll figure them out for each session, and hopefully where I want to pop them in doesn't vanish due to player's actions. If they do, then back to rewrite.  </li> </ul>Add all that up and you might find it takes a few hours for each session. Not minutes. And as I stated before, if I want to improv or just glance at the characters and play the stubborn dwarf who isn't trying to convey information related to an entire book's worth of material, then no problem. My prep time is zero seconds. But, again, to run it as intended, takes time.You are right though. If I want to read it, scribble some notes, improv each character, read the text box the AP provides, and force the player's down the railroad. You got it. 15-20 prep time per session, max. And I am also saying, there is nothing wrong with that. I've done it. I imagine every experienced DM has done it. It can be fun. But, for the long haul, as a player and DM, I prefer my DM to have things thought out.  I capitalized Dwarven Forge because it is a company. A company's name is capitalized. It is a proper noun. There is no gate keeping. It's a fun dungeon building set, but takes me awhile to build. That's all. The Lego kid in me enjoys it.I mentioned that because it was hyperbole. Someone called me out for it, and I said it was hyperbole. But, it was meant to show a point. Compare a 5e AP to another company (maybe not Paizo or The old Masquerade books) and they are way above them in writing quality, design, logic, graphic design, artwork, encounter builds, etc. I am trying (through hyperbole) to say they are great compared to the other products out there. In the end, I feel like we just run our games differently. To insult me for taking so long to prep, especially after I explained it the first time. To say it is a frantic DM that does this. It's is insulting. Maybe you didn't mean it that way. In fact, I believe you didn't. You were just coming from the: It's a game. Lighten up. Just play and have fun mantra. And that's cool. I'm glad you are having fun. I am too. Both, with your playstyle, just showing up and going with the flow, and with the kind that analyzes (maybe too much so for some people's taste) the AP. But for AP's, we'll just leave it as a disagreement. I think the professionally written ones from D&D can be fun provided you have a prepped DM, players, and a chemistry between all three. You say many of them  are crap and laughable. I do not agree, but maybe one day I will. Just not today.</blockquote>

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