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<blockquote data-quote="Pax" data-source="post: 831768" data-attributes="member: 6875">If the dragon is any older than a newly-laid EGG -- don't do it.&nbsp; You're looking at a very probable TPK, bigtime.IMO, characters shouldn't even run into the smaller dragon varieties until 6th level -- AT LEAST.A well-GMed, smart dragon's EL should be as much as double its' ra CR -- possibly even more.Played smartly, almost a guaranteed TPK in ... maybe 3-4 rounds ... this would (with properly uprated CRs for dragons) constitute an EL10-ish encounter, of course.The EL would drop by 2-ish, so the time to TPK woudl likely double.&nbsp; Slim chance one or two of your party manages to (barely) survive, probably by turning tail and running away.All dragons are under-valued for CR (intentionally so, though I don't agree with that policy).&nbsp; Bump the CR of all dragons up by 1/3 to 1/2 of their listed values, and then round UP -- so the two dragons you've described are CR4-5 and CR5-6, respectively.&nbsp; Around ... 3d level, our party of EIGHT, encountered ONE very young White dragon.Our bard died (killed outright) with the first breath weapon; my sorceror, with a successful save, was only driven to -1hp.&nbsp; The rest of the party was conscious -- but generally, only by a NARROW margin ... This was a CR(4) dragon, against a party TWICE as strong (by dint of having 8 PCs around) as the rules suggest a CR3 encounter for.&nbsp; It wasn't in it's lair, either, so it did NOT have home court advantage.I strongly advise AGAINST putting these guys up against a dragon so SOON in their careers.&nbsp; Let 'em encounter a kobold lair or two, build up to 4th or 5th level, while tracking DOWN that CR3-4 Red Dragon ...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pax, post: 831768, member: 6875"] If the dragon is any older than a newly-laid EGG -- don't do it. You're looking at a very probable TPK, bigtime. IMO, characters shouldn't even run into the smaller dragon varieties until 6th level -- AT LEAST. A well-GMed, [b]smart[/b] dragon's EL should be as much as double its' ra CR -- possibly even more. Played smartly, almost a guaranteed TPK in ... maybe 3-4 rounds ... this would (with properly uprated CRs for dragons) constitute an EL10-ish encounter, of course. The EL would drop by 2-ish, so the time to TPK woudl likely double. Slim chance one or two of your party manages to (barely) survive, probably by turning tail and running away. All dragons are under-valued for CR (intentionally so, though I don't agree with that policy). Bump the CR of all dragons up by 1/3 to 1/2 of their listed values, and then round UP -- so the two dragons you've described are CR4-5 and CR5-6, respectively. Around ... 3d level, our party of EIGHT, encountered ONE very young White dragon. Our bard died (killed outright) with the first breath weapon; my sorceror, with a successful save, was only driven to -1hp. The rest of the party was conscious -- but generally, only by a NARROW margin ... This was a CR(4) dragon, against a party TWICE as strong (by dint of having 8 PCs around) as the rules suggest a CR3 encounter for. It wasn't in it's lair, either, so it did NOT have home court advantage. I strongly advise AGAINST putting these guys up against a dragon so SOON in their careers. Let 'em encounter a kobold lair or two, build up to 4th or 5th level, while tracking DOWN that CR3-4 Red Dragon ... [/QUOTE]

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