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<blockquote data-quote="Ainamacar" data-source="post: 5795201" data-attributes="member: 70709">I agree with EW, this doesn't seem like a problem with goblinoid levels per se.---Increasing attacks and defenses is the crudest way to represent power in the game, and because the d20 itself never changes also the most problematic if relied upon too heavily (such as when the differences between the best and worst defenses becomes ridiculous).&nbsp; It is almost certainly the least interesting as well.&nbsp; The main thing is that the PCs should wipe the floor against lesser threats, which is not the same as blanket immunity.&nbsp; I don't get much satisfaction from eliminating enemies whose presence is necessarily inconsequential because they only hit on a 20.&nbsp; I do get satisfaction if their presence induces the PCs to use their mighty abilities to counteract a credible threat, less so if it is the same basic threat produced by that enemy 10 levels earlier.&nbsp; As I see it, the proper way to kill 3 orcs at level 1 is pitched combat.&nbsp; The proper way to kill 15 orcs at level 15 isn't a +20 bonus, it's prismatic spray.In other words, I want enemies to &quot;minionize&quot; smoothly without needing to change their stats (which robs a sense of continuity) but also without making their presence in the combat mathematically pointless.&nbsp; It is the changing interaction with a static monster like the basic orc grunt that best highlights, at least for me, the growth of the PCs. 3e basically kept continuity but the power curve meant monsters didn't stay relevant for long.&nbsp; 4e tried to do both with a mediocre compromise: scaling monsters kept a semblance of continuity if you didn't look too hard but utterly failed to change the role of that monster in a fight and thus highlight the PCs' improvement.&nbsp; On the other hand, the minion mechanic achieves some basic goals (a credible enemy that can be removed quickly) but sacrifices the sense of monster continuity almost entirely -- one big reason some people were uncomfortable with the notion of the level 25 minion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ainamacar, post: 5795201, member: 70709"] I agree with EW, this doesn't seem like a problem with goblinoid levels per se. --- Increasing attacks and defenses is the crudest way to represent power in the game, and because the d20 itself never changes also the most problematic if relied upon too heavily (such as when the differences between the best and worst defenses becomes ridiculous). It is almost certainly the least interesting as well. The main thing is that the PCs should wipe the floor against lesser threats, which is not the same as blanket immunity. I don't get much satisfaction from eliminating enemies whose presence is necessarily inconsequential because they only hit on a 20. I do get satisfaction if their presence induces the PCs to use their mighty abilities to counteract a credible threat, less so if it is the same basic threat produced by that enemy 10 levels earlier. As I see it, the proper way to kill 3 orcs at level 1 is pitched combat. The proper way to kill 15 orcs at level 15 isn't a +20 bonus, it's prismatic spray. In other words, I want enemies to "minionize" smoothly without needing to change their stats (which robs a sense of continuity) but also without making their presence in the combat mathematically pointless. It is the changing interaction with a static monster like the basic orc grunt that best highlights, at least for me, the growth of the PCs. 3e basically kept continuity but the power curve meant monsters didn't stay relevant for long. 4e tried to do both with a mediocre compromise: scaling monsters kept a semblance of continuity if you didn't look too hard but utterly failed to change the role of that monster in a fight and thus highlight the PCs' improvement. On the other hand, the minion mechanic achieves some basic goals (a credible enemy that can be removed quickly) but sacrifices the sense of monster continuity almost entirely -- one big reason some people were uncomfortable with the notion of the level 25 minion. [/QUOTE]

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