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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AdmundfortGeographer" data-source="post: 1344085" data-attributes="member: 4682">Well, I did hope that there would be an outpouring of responses. I'm glad that there have been. One thing I have noticed is that some folks have drifted off from my original intent in inquiring about Kit-like structures in D20 games.Whether a player can accomplish the theme he, or she, wants is not what I am asking about.  I'm looking at Kits from a DM/world builder perspective.  And, I repeat, I'm especially referring to how Kits were done with the settings of Red Steel and Al-Qadim.  For those who have not seen a campaign that is closed to a finite amount of Kits, and where Kits are required, you are probably missing what I am touching upon.For those with some curiousity to what I'm talking about when I keep saying "Kits done right", you can download a formatted .pdf of the free online release of the Red Steel campaign setting.  The .pdf file of the character creation rules can be found <a href="http://www.dnd.starflung.com/scoast2.pdf" target="_blank">HERE</a>.  The rest of the setting can also be found, formatted, at <a href="http://www.dnd.starflung.com/svgecst.html" target="_blank">www.dnd.starflung.com/svgecst.html</a>. In the Red Steel setting, Kits were not permanent.  A character could change from one or another, although there could have been penalties for abandoning a Kit.I don't care about winning any converts to liking Kits generally.  As I already said, there were so many Kits that were just aweful. I'm just saying that there were times, from the DM/world builder perspective, when Kits implemented just right, were perfect vehicles to convey the setting's flavor.For those who said that the D20 system's implementation of Feats, Skills, and PrC's make Kits obsolete... well, I'm confused because you must have missed when I said that there are times when D20's Feats, Skills and PrCs are not suitable, despite all the things that a player can accomplish with them.  The D20 rules require a character to gain a level to make use of any of these things.  To me, as a DM who wants an easy method of conveying the flavor of the campaign genre, this is quite clunky compared to an example of Kits-done-right (to which I refer people to the examples of the Red Steel and Al-Qadim settings).To get the D20 system's various rules features properly coordinated to convey a DM's world's flavor takes an amount of rules mastery that I find a tremendous barrier to overcome.  I'm a not a rules junky, but I am a "flavor" junky.Lastly, I'm looking at this issue from the DM perspective, not the player perspective.  To me, whatever benefits a player can do with AD&D Kits vs. D20 rules is irrelevant.Thanks to everyone who recommended looking at the Quint books by Mongoose, I'll give them a look.  Bizarrely, my mind gets stuck in a genre-lock often, and I forgot about D20 Modern's occupations... another good recommendation to mine ideas from...Anyway, I'm quite glad that my point wasn't entirely lost upon folks.  Before I posted I was wondering if I was imagining it all.  And I'm heartened to see there are some out there who also see the same "gap" I did.Regards,Eric Anondson</blockquote>

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