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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4916460" data-attributes="member: 2067">I think one of the things I miss the most is the different ways of acquiring and using abilities. Which means, for me, one of the more grievous similarities is "two at-wills, encounter, daily, then same advancement for everyone, always."Which is, of course, the hardest thing to fiddle with in a balanced fashion. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> But many of these other tidbits could go a long way toward making things distinctive. And though Prof C mostly hits on the noncombat angle, I think the salient point is something he articulated pretty well: I should be able to do things as Class X that no one else can do. Where is the thing I can do as a rogue, or a wizard, or a fighter, that no one else does? It's not my combat role (others do that, though in different fiddly ways), it's not my out-of-combat role (others are basically my equal in this regard). What do I contribute to a party that is binary? That is "Oh, you don't have a Rogue, so you're going to suck at X."I think this is a harder balancing act than even "power acquisition" rules, because part of 4e's philosophy is that everyone can contribute in some meaningful way all the time. Which isn't a bad philosophy, because it's boring sitting out a challenge you can't contribute to.I dunno...there are some things that would alleviate the issue before we got to that point, I think. And maybe some sort of expanded roles system or whatnot is useful (In combat, a rogue is a striker! In exploration, the rogue is a trailblazer! In social situations, a rogue is a wit! The rogue is the only class with this unique combination; other classes have other combinations!) in just creating levels of difference. The more things I can point to on my character sheet and say "I am the only character who can do this," the better the class variety gets, I think. Which brings us to the OP. I don't think this is an insurmountable problem for 4e. Heck, talking like this, it seems that 4e could even probably accept some add-on systems to mostly solve the problem. And those that don't have a problem don't need to use any of the sub-systems. Hmm...brain churning...</blockquote>

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