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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 4931750" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, hang on, since we're talking sliding goalposts, the bow using rogue is completely changing the arguement.Bow using rogue is not a character concept.  It's a class concept, but, unless the guy walks around actually IDENTIFYING himself as a rogue, you're off base.  Claiming that the names don't fit is a pretty weak arguement as well.  Change the names!  Good grief, is that really that hard?  Unless you think that changing the names of powers equates with having a code of honor that I cannot break and I MUST be Lawful Good and  I MUST be a holy warrior in order to get what I want.Funny that you picked 8th level.  Nice.  How about 6th?  As a fighter, I should be getting my iterative attack.  As a 3/5 fighter/rogue, I've got a 6 BAB, which makes a fairly big difference.  Heck, at 6th level, if I'm a 3/3 F/R, I lost my iterative attack until next level.  Again, fairly big loss.  Plus, despite the fact that I don't want it as it's not part of my concept (a point you guys ignored the first time around) I suddenly can't wear heavy armor if I want to take advantage of the rogue abilities (for some reason Henry V walks around in leather armor) and I can now find traps, even though that has NOTHING to do with my concept.In 3e, you effectiveness out of combat is inversely proportional to your effectiveness in combat.  There's a reason that of the 4 base classes, only rogues get 8 skill points.  If I want to make a character concept that mixes combat with non-combat (unlike our bow wielding rogue, which is a bit of a misleading example as it doesn't actually address my point), I'm forced by the rules to accept a bucket full of additional abilities and restrictions.In 4e, it costs me a single feat.  Now, fair enough, let's expand from core.  It has been suggested I take swashbuckler.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't swashbuckler considered extremely weak in combat?  That doesn't really match with McFightswell does it?  Additionally, swashbucklers can't wear heavy armor.  My Henry V character just got shelved, yet again.Remalthalis actually agrees with me that I cannot make my concept in 3e and that I should switch to Pathfinder.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Nice.  At the end of the day, there's three reasons I don't buy into this whole thing.1.  I don't buy the basic premise.  The idea that you need mechanical diversity in order to have diversity of play is false.  Games like GURPS and Savage Worlds both prove this to be false.  There is no mechanical diversity between your character and mine in GURPS or Savage Worlds.  There are no class based mini-games.  Yet, we are very capable of creating diverse game play in those systems.2.  I disagree that 3e had as many options as people are claiming.  As I mentioned above, because combat and non-combat abilities were tied together, if you have a concept that includes those two elements, your choices are actually very, very limited and frequently force you to make many concessions since each class comes front loaded with a bucket of abilities and restrictions.  Never mind Suave McFightswell, how about his brother Knowitall McFightswell?3.  It was mentioned that this is a common complaint.  I'm not entirely convinced that it is that common, but, also, just because something is repeated often doesn't make it true.  It was a common complaint that 3e played like a video game.  That 3e art was all anime inspired.  Those complaints weren't true.  I'm not convinced that this one is either.</blockquote>

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