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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 4935757" data-attributes="member: 22779">I think we'd be better off if you'd back down, just a smidgeon on the antagonism.  I didn't misquote you here.  You're the one who claimed "thousands of options" and I said that was false.  Wow, sue me for a mistype.  I missed a couple of letters.  You misspelled "in to".  Let's call it a draw shall we?  I'll point out that in this entire thread, I have yet to make a single value judgement about what I like or don't like.  Not a single one.  I'm not the one who feels the need to repeatedly state that a particular game is bad.  At least you're starting to tack on the "for me" once in a while.  The problem with your point is that you insist that every single class plays out exactly the same.  If someone disagrees with that point, then there is no more problem with sameyness.  Now, I do disagree with that point.  Just because two characters have similar combat potential at the same level does not mean that they play the same.But, again, it doesn't MATTER if 4e is as flat as a pancake.  That wasn't what I was discussing.What I actually WAS disagreeing with was the idea that I have all these "thousands of choices" as you put it.  I don't.  I just showed that I don't.  Suave McFightswell has at the outside about a dozen options (which in my version of math is not "thousands" thus the hyperbole comment) half of which do not actually satisfy the criteria I listed.Now, things got a bit muddled with the knowlegeable archer example, because we didn't actually build that.  But, I'm pretty sure that if I listed a series of criteria, I'd probably get the same results.Your point about "sameness of choices" in 3e brings it right back to my initial problem.  That unique characters require unique mechanics.  That's just not true.  I showed that already.  GURPS contains not a single unique mechanic based on character creation.  Not one.  Every single choice works in play EXACTLY the same - it uses the same mechanics.  Yet, I've yet to hear that GURPS suffers from homogeneity.  Savage Worlds as well.  Actually a fair chunk of skill based games all use standard mechanics.  I don't play Hero.  Are there unique mechanics based on individual powers?BryonD, I find your argument very, very flawed.  To accept your premise that 4e is too flat, I have to accept that it is a requirement to have unique mechanics.  I don't accept that and I can prove that that's false.  Second, to accept that 3e gives me "thousands of choices" I have to ignore the fact that if I step outside of pre-defined concepts (as MerricB and others have pointed out better than I did) my choices go from buckets to teacups.Depth vs breadth of choice.Third, I have to accept that all 4e classes play the same because 4e classes adhere to a mathematical framework which balances the combat abilities of a class against all other classes of the same level.  I don't accept that.  There's more than enough people who claim that this isn't true to think that it's probably not.  Plus, I can look at actual game play, like the PvP podcasts and hear that this isn't true.Now, the goal of this thread - introducing additional mechanics to increase choices is a very good thing.  It's always good to have more choices.My objection is to how the issue is being framed.  "4e is seriously flawed.  All the choices are exactly the same and it needs to be fixed.  How can we fix this and make 4e a good game?"  is far too loaded an approach for me.  It's no different than how people framed "fixes" for 3e as well.  It bugged me back then and it still bugs me now.</blockquote>

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