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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Primal" data-source="post: 4942561" data-attributes="member: 30678">The same way; for example, if a high level rogue/assassin would be about to coup-de-grace sleeping PCs, you need to beat 20 or so to hear "something" (you awake sleepy and groggy and naked but not helpless); even if the rogue should have (and even had) succeeded in killing them in their sleep (note: this is not a very good example as I wouldn't probably let the assassin auto-kill PCs even if they rolled a natural 1 on Listen/Perception). Or if they roll Bluff vs. Sense Motive, results above 20 nets them a success or a "partial" success, regardless of what the NPC rolled (especially if failure would result in something drastic like the PCs being jailed).The only exceptions to this rule might be when players clearly expect that the DC should -- on "logical" grounds or for "dramatic"/story reasons -- be much higher (for example, when trying to bluff the king or make the finest sword in the country). Or when they're using their best skills (assuming some sort of "specialization"; usually the rogue or the wizard have highest individual skill modifiers in my group) and *can* regularly get 30+ skill check results.I think this became more or less of an unwritten rule when we lost the whole group of PCs due to failing a single *Climb* check (DC 15; two PCs fell short by *one*) and everyone fell to their deaths -- probably the most embarrasing TPK I've ever heard of. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush    :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" /> Yeah, we had already beaten almost every monster in that place, and then we are killed by a... steep cliff. After that particular incident (quite soon after 3E had come out), we didn't roll against set DCs and the DM just told players to "Roll a Climb check" instead of revealing the DC (note: we were still more or less in the "AD&D mindset", and used to how NWPs worked, i.e. even 1st level PCs succeed in about 70-80% skill or ability checks).</blockquote>

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