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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sylrae" data-source="post: 5022561" data-attributes="member: 48520">That is what the notes at the bottom of my post were about. A Monster's Cr is based on how challenging they think it will be for one fight, and so things you can use again and again aren't factored into it. Which is why I suggested changing them.With the changes I mentioned, this quick fix (it IS a quick fix) is better than LA+HD, as HD are far overvalued in this system. Sure, there are overpowered exceptions that are not the right CR, they're often off a bit. You can't fix that without reassigning the CRs as necessary.Agreed. CR is a better indicator of power than LA though. Savage Species failed at this. They were supporting LA+HD, but were breaking that same system down by level. Savage Species Assumes LA+HD Works. I'm saying now that it doesn't. When LA+HD is functional it's a peculiarity, not the general case.They also didn't do it the same way I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting something like the racial classes in Arcana Evolved/WoWRPG. The Racial Classes should be balanced against the player classes, not just the same abilities as in the MM but spread out. Every level you should get:HDSkillsStandard Feat Progression at 1,3,6,9 etc (in PF 1,3,5,7,9 etc)Standard Ability Score increases by level.You shouldnt get many immunities: So trim them back.You shouldn't get much in the way of *At Will*: Trim them back.Energy Drain, High DR, Massive Consistent Damage Output: Trim them backAsk yourself: Would this still be the same type of monster if I dropped this (does it need this ability)?If No, Ask: Would this ability be reasonable if we reduced the number of times per day it gets used?It's perfectly ok to maintain the concept and knock it down in CR, by pulling out unnecessary extras. Means you can get more class levels to compensate.Keep in mind that, where a monster has all their abilities, if they would use them all up before end of combat, said monster, as an adventurer, would get into on average 4 combats per day like that. (Which may justify scaling uses up for some abilities). At Will abilities, could probably be scaled down, to how often they're used in one fight on average, x4. This would up the power for x/day uses, and keep the utility of the At-Will abilities around the same. Scale back to weaken the monster. The most balanced races are the LA+0 Races. Generally the coolest + playable are the LA+1 Races. Genasi, Teifling, Aasimar, Half-Ogres, Half-Giants, and Goliaths are pretty awesome. It's hard to find LA+1 races that aren't really cool for players and still within the same basic power range.That doesn't mean you're trying to break the system if you want something of a Higher LA for your character. Maybe you really just want to play that minotaur, or medusa, or lizardfolk, or vampire, or werewolf, or whatever. the fact that they were not well designed for players doesnt mean youre doing it to break the game. You're just trying to do something the game did a poor job covering.Things like this are a common occurrence in our games, For Example. I have an Erinyes(0) Druid(3), she only has LA+0 worth of devil abilities, and 3 levels in druid. She's going to take a level in Erinyes to get access to flight at 4 or 5. She's perfectly balanced against the elf and the dwarf and the teifling. We also have a Minotaur(2) Fighter(1), who ended up being a bit broken and needs to be powered down a bit.Were they trying to break the system? No. They were just wanting to play something interesting. Does the game support it? To a point. Am I going to shut them down for it? No. I find it also interesting.Will it be a problem if they go to a different city, where the population/government isn't a bunch of scumbag pirates who use them so long as they're useful? Most Likely. They can expect to be attacked on sight in those places. Well, the minotaur can. The Erinyes can claim to be angelic or something. The Teifling needs to find armor to hide the spikes that come out of his joints (elbows, etc). The Elf will be fine unless they go somewhere where people are racist against elves.The Monsters simply weren't designed to be playable, and so anything past a +1 requires quite a bit of effort to make reasonably playable. Unless you're invested in putting a decent chunk of effort into your monster characters and balancing them against other players, there's no perfect quick-fix. The monsters weren't designed for more than a single encounter. My best advice for you is the quick fix I mentioned. It won't be perfect, but if you add in the changes I suggested, and pull out the abilities I mentioned and tweak them, it should be ok most of the time. You might need to tweak a CR up or down a point to 2 points.Is our group typical? Not from what I hear, but it's similar to every other group I've DMed, and similar to 95% of games I've PCed in. I have someone wanting to make a cleric who actually intends to be party healer support, and that's never happened before.Here is what our games are like, which will explain why monstrous appearances are more accepted and why I've been opting to hit clerics with a NERF BAT.DM StyleWhile Player actions have consequences, I'm not going to directly stop them from doing bad things. This includes PVP, Mass Slaughter, Murder, Poisoning the town, etc.People will hunt them down, but I don't force them to be good, or to work together.Unless I push them into situations where they do heroic things, they often have pvp conflict, and often become hunted fugitives if in goodly societies.Player Style I think because I won't directly prohibit it, they do it, it happens with new groups as much as old. Players will rob eachother. They'll lie to eachother, cheat eachother out of their share of the profits, and occasionally even kill eachother. Nobody wants to play Party support. They all have their own goals. Clerics watch out for themselves, and they usually use their superior casting + combat to make themselves superfighters. Sometimes they support one or 2 others, but I've never had one intend to support the whole group until this game, in 10 years of DMing. I've dropped Cure Light Wounds potions down to 25g a piece. The Evil tends to die down a bit after the first campaign with a set of players when the novelty of not being directly prohibited wears off. Then you have the same thing, but to a smaller extent.Good Good!HD+LA (And Savage Species) works out ok as long as everyone is using the same base HD and same LA. Works as a balancer, but it makes no sense In-Game. For that matter, why can't the Monster steal the item from the players and use it themselves. IMO Not a Good Fix.Pathfinder Did This.Sounds like you hit them with a nerf-stick so hard they're pathetic, and then remove the opportunity to advance them, which will often make you worse than equivalent LA+0 PCs. I'd probably never take these. It would entirely depend on the 'juvenile' version that you designed.</blockquote>

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