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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ketser" data-source="post: 6942853" data-attributes="member: 66805">The original lore never said that orcs are less intelligent. In the original lore the fel magic was pretty "intelligence based." The fact that orcs didn't have access to mages was simply because studying arcane takes a considerable amount of time, many orcs also felt it being too close to warlock magic or something they associated far more with the Alliance. But time passed and some of the orcs started taking interest in the arcane. Are the rare? Yes. But not because the lack of intelligence, more because their race has basically just started studying the arcane. A lot of Cataclysm expanded class options for races are like that.And damn  there are alot orc NPCs and enemies that are engineers/tinkerers. So even outside magic the warcraft orc is smarter then the classic D&D this said.Well i want to have a bit different orcs than the standard ones, also i would make an argument of the orcs in Eberron being far closer to Warcraft and TES ones than the standard D&D ones. And maybe this is a reason why i also feel disappointed in Volo's Guide version. In some ways this "optional monster race" version doesn't support well with some of the newer concepts for orcish race/culture. And in many ways 5e has hugged too close to the old "those creatures are always irredeemable monsters." I get that some players prefer the more monstrous orcs and this is fine, i would just have liked if there was official support to the Warcraft/TES/Eberron orcs. The Volo's Guide stats can work for them too, but the way how the race is presented: an optional-optional monstrous stats for building NPCs with an aged mechanic that standard PC races don't have. In many ways them (and some others) just being treated as monsters that some players like to play is a greater issue than the -2 penalty to int.Talking of stats penalties. Is a int penalty really a good way to note that a certain race is just less civilized? This whole conversation has made me think back to 3.x era and a little issue i started getting with int penalties back then, where it sometimes felt that almost every primitive or simplistic race/culture got assigned an arbitrary -2 int penalty. While some of them could really be considered less intelligent, mostly it was used by the devs to say this race is more primitive, simplistic, less interested in intellectual pursuits. Maybe its just my experience, but a lot players tended to take that -2 int means that race is stupid, with only a few getting what the penalty really meant. Should we really have a view that less civilized equals less intelligent? Because that's something that it will imply to a lot of people.Perhaps this is the main problem with stat penalties, they tend force characters into certain concepts rather than encourage trying to play against the role. There were of course people who tied to play half orc wizards in 3.5 and had probably some really get roleplaying possibilities with it. But they were a rarity. Having only bonuses and racials, removes the barrier of fear of making a too weak character.Coming back to orcs. In my campaign they have been a semi-nomadic race who has been usually living in the harsher regions. Yes occasional warbands have raided civilized lands and have been served as mercenaries in a bit more questionable forces, but both have also been done by "the standard D&D races." Now they have started getting civilized, trade more often with other races, with orc merchants and mercenaries coming a far more common sight. But they are still this warrior culture that probably has a harder time adjusting to some concepts (for example while herding is accepted, orcs tend to treat farming as something lesser. Most of plant based food coming from foraging or trading. An "academic orc" acts probably more like a skald or cunning man/woman, but wouldn't be worse than a similar version among other races. In general i'm feeling the half orc stats being a better fit. If a player really wants to play with the Volo's stats, then i might allow it, asking how important for them is the stat penalty and saying it directly out that for me its an unnecessary addition.PS. Because i just remembered it. Didn't actually FR try to make their orcs more civilized or is it one of the 4e things they are trying to erase from history?</blockquote>

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