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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bill Zebub" data-source="post: 9545001" data-attributes="member: 7031982"><s>Ok, the thread title is more confrontational than I really mean.  Please hear me out...</s>I renamed the thread thanks to an excellent response by [USER=2067]@I'm A Banana[/USER] I want to argue that combat is the only part of the game in which the default should be reaching for dice and relying on mechanics.  That in ALL other parts of the game we should first try to resolve things through narration/storytelling, and only roll dice as a last resort to resolve real uncertainty.  Or, at least, that's how I personally would like to play.   I believe that, outside of combat, rolling dice should follow this pattern:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The player declares an action</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If the DM decides the outcome is uncertain, and there is a real cost to failure, the DM may call for a roll</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The DM tells the player what the roll will be, including DC, and what the cost of failure will be</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The player then has the option of not taking the action</li> </ol>And, by the way, "you can't try again" is not a cost of failure, at least by my definition.  If you try to pick a lock and you fail, the door is still locked; the game state hasn't changed.Litmus Test: if the DM's only tool for preventing everybody in the party from trying is by declaring (unrealistically) that only one character is allowed to try, then clearly the penalty for failure is insufficient.This means:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No passive rolls to spot things</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No rolls to see "if I know something"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No rolling Insight to detect lies</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">For those who want NPCs to "use social skills on PCs" the pattern is perfectly symmetric, which means the DM describes the action, the player decides whether outcome is uncertain, and calls for a roll, setting the DC.</li> </ul>And one final thing: I'm in the camp where I don't police, or even worry about, "metagaming" (using the narrow and somewhat inaccurate definition of "not separating player and character knowledge about the game world.")But doing his is hard.  Both because I got used to playing and another way, and just because sometimes it's hard.  I'm still practicing DMing this way.So to help me practice, here's the challenge: describe a scenario in which you think it would be challenging to follow these principles, and I'll see if I can figure out either how to handle the scenario, or how (and why) I would prefer to set up the scenario differently in the first place.  Others are free to respond also.  Maybe we'll all learn something.Example:"The party is exploring a maze of nearly identical passages, and there is a secret door in one otherwise unremarkable tunnel.  How do you determine if the secret door is found without passive rolls or cost of failure?"My answer:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">First, what purpose does the secret door serve in terms of making the game more fun.  Is it just a random short-cut?  Does it lead to a treasure room?  Does it make the challenges faced by the party objectively easier?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If it's just a random short-cut or otherwise provides a minor benefit, I might telegraph it's presence when they are near.  For example, the party might intermittently notice footprints, and I'll tell them (no roll required!) that the footprints have disappeared.  If they search around near where the footprints end, they find the door automatically.  (Alternatively, I might eliminate the secret door as pointless.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If it's important, such as leading to a treasure room or making the party's objectives significantly easier, I would want to telegraph it from another location and then let them deduce the likely location.  Any attempt to actively search for it in the correct location would be successful (but see next comment).  The telegraph could be in a journal or map they find, a comment by a prisoner, a symmetric/geometric map in which one part is "missing", etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If they are actively looking for a secret door but are under time pressure, then I might ask for a roll.  The cost of failure is using up time.  E.g., they are being pursued and want to use the secret door to hide from their pursuers before they are caught.</li> </ul>I'd love to have this thread NOT devolve into a debate about metagaming.</blockquote>

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