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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 9545324" data-attributes="member: 6779196">So, I basically agree with all of this in principle, but I would argue that combat also works this way. It’s just that almost every action a PC might take in combat does have a built-in uncertainty of outcome and consequence for failure.I’m going to push back on these points, even under the principles outlined above. D&D 5e (or at least the 2014 version) specifies that passive checks are used to represent the average results of an action performed repeatedly. They are not actually passive despite their name, they’re just how the system handles an action description like “I use my 10-foot pole to prod the ground in front of us as we walk.” That’s still an action with an uncertain outcome, but since it’s being performed repeatedly over time, 5e says the DM should use a passive check to resolve that uncertainty.As for rolls to see if you know things, this is a tricky one, but in my interpretation this is still an action declaration, just one that’s usually stated incompletely. “Can I roll to see if I know anything about trolls” tells us the player’s goal (learn something about trolls), but the goal is fairly vague, and it doesn’t tell us the character’s approach. I would encourage the player to be more specific here, for example, “I think back to my uncle Gustav’s tales of his time as a troll hunter to try and remember if he mentioned any specific weaknesses they have.” This both communicates what the player is trying to accomplish and how so the DM can properly adjudicate, and it reveals potentially interesting backstory information about the character to the group.Insight, in my mind, is like the social version of perception or investigation. In order for the players to make use of it, they need clues in the environment to respond to. A lie is like a social trap - it should have some indication of its existence so that the player can interact with it by declaring specific actions. For example, the DM might describe the NPC stuttering, sweating, or otherwise looking nervous. Or they might describe the NPC sneering, speaking with a haughty tone, or otherwise acting contemptuously towards the PCs. These telegraphs give players something to latch their action descriptions on to, like “I observe his facial expressions carefully to see if there’s a pattern to when he gets nervous.” This probably shouldn’t result in telling if a specific statement is a lie, but it should be able to result in information that can indicate if a character is hiding the truth generally.Your last point about symmetrical social actions is an interesting one. Personally, I prefer just not to have NPCs use social skills against PCs, and to make social interactions players-always-roll scenarios. But, it’s a neat idea, and generally how I resolve PvP actions; social or otherwise.Understandable. It takes some getting used to, and some of the nuances like those discussed above are things you may discover as you practice with this approach.One helpful thing to keep in mind is that time wasted can be a meaningful cost of failure, if time is in some way under pressure. This doesn’t have to mean ticking clocks like “if you don’t defeat the dragon in time, the princess will be eaten” or whatever, it can just mean time advances towards the next periodic wandering monster check. That’s a big part of why combat actions always have consequences for failure, because in combat time is always under pressure.Anyway, here’s one for you: in a Ravenloft campaign, a spy working for Strahd wants to steal a personal object belonging to one of the PCs while they are sleeping, so Strahd can use it to more easily scry on the PC in question. How do you determine if the spy gets into and out of the camp without getting caught, without relying on passive Perception?Based on my experience I think it’s more likely to devolve into a debate about whether or not players should be able to declare a skill and roll without describing a specific action. But either way, good luck.</blockquote>

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