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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8160336" data-attributes="member: 18">You're continuing to support my point after initially contradicting me, which is kind of amazing, I have to say. You keep trying to have your cake with "Achilli didn't do it!" and yet eat it with "Achilli was totally right to do it!". I dunno man, you didn't add anything to your previous post, and you demand "quotes" from a time you know perfectly well is just gone from the internet, and I'm not even sure what quotes you want, or from who.As for "a parody of intent", that sounds a lot like I was right about you being confused re: the RPG I mentioned, and you're backpedaling, because if you'd meant that, you wouldn't have said "literally" (unless you're one of those people who uses literally to mean "metaphorically").V5 I haven't played or bought but a lot of people seem to think it repeats the same mistakes as Revised, whilst making a whole bunch of new mistakes to boot.This whole thing where you want it both ways though is amazing. You're claiming Revised was inclusive, but also claiming that "any developer worth their salt" should have been angry about "superheroes with fangs". As for "I don't think this game is aimed at you", that's amazing after you claiming it was "open inclusive", because you're literally saying it's exclusionary by saying that. You're just contradicting yourself directly.And the rules absolutely supported, even encouraged "superheroes with fangs" or "katanas and trenchcoats". Humanity basically meant that acting like Nick Knight or other vampire quasi-superheroes/goody-two-shoes was absolutely the way to go - and the combat and ability rules very much made you a superhero.This hysterical stuff where you try and argue that the Sabbat are some latter-day addition is absolutely amazing too. Dude, they're from 1993 at latest. When did Vampire 1st come out? 1991. So what, you think "TRU VAMPIRE!" is like a two-year period in the early 1990s? Come on. You're not allowed to talk about "moving goalposts" when your idea of what VtM is, is limited to a two-year period. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that claim, wow.As for claims re: "not aimed at that audience", that's a ridiculous approach, because that's not only the audience who made it successful, but it's an audience that WW pandered to. Even in Revised, just not initially. The peak of success, financially, for WW, was the 2E era for their various games, and they pumped out huge numbers of splatbooks, many of them very mechanics-heavy and with a ton of combat stuff - including making katanas particularly good weapons, IIRC. But that pandering alone hard-disproves the notion of "not aimed at that audience". Achilli was essentially being juvenile, like one of those musicians who decides the mass appeal of his music sucks, so he's going to tell most of his audience that they suck. And it clearly worked - Revised was a lot less financially successful and less broadly popular than previous editions (I don't think was the only or even dominant factor, to be honest). But again the pandering disproves the claims re: not aimed at. This is a company who brought out the Street Fighter RPG for goodness sake - they nearly convinced Capcom to created a WtA-based Street Fighter/Vampire Saviour (i.e. Darkstalkers)-style beat 'em up at one point in the 1990s.Also can I just say, from an entirely personal note, how extremely unpleasant it is that you're basically telling me I need to not like VtM, when my brother and I were fascinated by it from 1991, and I still remember the shock and amazement when he threw the copy he'd just bought onto my bed, and I started reading it (I was getting up at like 1pm, to be fair it was a Saturday), and we basically bought everything that came out for 2E (and a lot for 1E), and played it a ton (in a way that was both personal horror and superheroes-with-fangs, because they're not incompatible, whatever Achilli thought in like 1998). We even pre-ordered two (2!) copies of Revised Special Edition, before Achilli made his various comments. I still have one unopened on my shelf (shrink-wrap still on!) because we really didn't enjoy the changes. And I know I wasn't the only one, because I was at university, and most of the people at the RPG club (which wasn't small, 30+ people turning up a lot of the time, not always the same people) ran WoD games (I mean, it was 1998 so...) and when Revised came out, a lot of people were unhappy or unimpressed.But honestly, as I've said a few times, V20 makes this a moot point. I've got a copy now, and it's basically 2E updated, without the Revised lore and style changes for the most part. So Achilli is forgiven.</blockquote>

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