Report on the Open Loot Table System

[DaveW]

I'm sure someone has done this before, but I asked for feedback on the idea in another thread, and I got the internet equivalent of blank stares. The only reply I had was "Why would you want to do that?"

Here was my idea. I started using loot tables to randomize the loot, and when I was doing it, I told the player who landed the final blow to roll for the loot. They seemed to really enjoy rolling for their own loot, so I thought; why not have a general loot table, and let them see it? So, I spent two weeks making various decks of cards, as follows. Bear in mind this is for a level one party.

[sblock]

1. A deck of Healing Potions.
2. A deck of Regeneration Potions.
3. (Potion Deck) A deck containing 1 of every potion below level 10, including a healing potion and potion of regeneration.
4. (Tier 1 Loot Deck) A deck containing art items and gems around the 100 GP mark.
5. (Tier 2 Loot Deck) A deck containing art items and gems around the 250 GP mark.
6. (Tier 3 Loot Deck) A deck containing art items and gems around the 500 GP mark, + a single card with an item worth ~1000 GP.
7. (Tier 1 Wondrous Item Deck) Wondrous Items between levels 1-2, including statuettes, etc.
8. (Tier 2 Wondrous Item Deck) Wondrous Items between levels 3-4, including statuettes, etc.
9. (Tier 3 Wondrous Item Deck) Wondrous Items at lvl 5, including statuettes, etc.
10. (Level 1 Magical Items) Level 1 items as follows; 3 cards for each of the following slots; arm, hand, waist, head, feet, neck. No rings. Total of 18 magical items at level 1.
11. (Level 2 Magical Items) Level 2 items as follows; 3 cards for each of the following slots; arm, hand, waist, head, feet, neck. No rings. Total of 18 magical items at level 2.
12. (Level 3 Magical Items) Level 3 items as follows; 3 cards for each of the following slots; arm, hand, waist, head, feet, neck. No rings. Total of 18 magical items at level 3.
13. (Level 4 Magical Items) Level 4 items as follows; 3 cards for each of the following slots; arm, hand, waist, head, feet, neck. No rings. Total of 18 magical items at level 4.
14. (Level 5 Magical Items) Level 5 items as follows; 3 cards for each of the following slots; arm, hand, waist, head, feet, neck. No rings. Total of 18 magical items at level 5.

[/sblock]

During the game, I had two loot tables attached to the player side of the DM screen. One table was a magical item loot table, and the other one was a normal loot table. Money on the normal loot table is divisible by 5, as there are 5 party members.

The normal loot table is as follows:

[sblock]
1) 20 GP
2) 40 GP
3) 60 GP
4) 80 GP
5) 90 GP
6) 10 GP + Tier 1 Loot Item
7) 120 GP
8) 20 GP + Tier 1 Loot Item
9) 125 GP
10) 40 GP + Tier 1 Loot Item
11) Tier 2 Loot Item
12) 200 GP
13) 100 GP + 1 Potion of Healing
14) 2 Potions of Healing
15) 50 GP + Potion of Regeneration
16) Random Potion
17) Tier 3 Loot Item
18) Roll for Magical Loot
19) Roll for Magical Loot
20) Roll for Magical Loot
[/sblock]

and the magical item loot table...

[sblock]

1. Re-roll on Normal Loot Table
2. Random Potion
3. Wondrous Item Tier 1
4. Wondrous Item Tier 2
5. Wondrous Item Tier 3
6. Magical Item Tier 1
7. Magical Item Tier 2
8. Magical Item Tier 3
9. Magical Item Tier 4
10. Magical Item Tier 5

[/sblock]
If the players defeated normal foes, or opened a standard chest, I told them they were able to roll on the normal loot table (with a chance of getting a magical item). When the players defeated a boss type-character or opened a locked and trapped chest, I told them they could roll on the magical item loot table (with a re-roll on a 1).

If they 'win' an item from one of the decks, I shuffled the deck and removed 3 cards, placing them face down in front of the player. The player selected one and the others are returned to the deck.

One final note: I retained full control over magical armor and weapons. This allows me to control the character balance, although the players can still potentially win crazy items that shift the odds in their favor.

So, how did this overcomplicated system work out in practice?

I get great feedback from this particular group, and I usually know when something didn't work for them. Rolling for their own loot really seemed to appeal to them, and they appreciated that they had considerable control now over the sort of items they get (as opposed to whatever I decide to make available to them). I'm planning on using this system again with tweaks now that they are at level 2.

Cons: It's a lot of work making the decks. Most of the stuff I made was taken from the Adventurer's Vault, so I can't just re-post it. If other people are open to the idea, I'd be happy to work on a collaborative effort to make full freely-available decks to save others from doing this work again. Apart from the time investment, another thing is making sure the loot tables are balanced. I think the tables in their current form a little unbalanced and could use a tweak. I'll update them anyway now that the players have leveled up.

I'd love to hear your feedback and suggestions for this, and if you want to collaborate on making some freely available card decks, then let me know.

Thanks for reading everyone!

-Dave

 

[DaveW]

66 views, and no-one has any feedback? Nothing to add? No criticisms or suggestions?

-Dave

 

[evilref]

66 views, and no-one has any feedback? Nothing to add? No criticisms or suggestions?

-Dave

I just read this.

I like giving 'stuff' to my players (handouts, maps etc.) so having treasure cards might be a good extension of this. I know I'd want to discuss it with them to see what their thoughts were. On the one hand it makes it very random, on the other it's giving them 'stuff to do' which can appeal to some players.

I'm sure there will be a lot of people for whom it'll be a break in verisimilitude and, like treasure parcels in general, it'll have detractors. As a game feature though I think it's potentially nifty.

I don't know if i'd use your exact system (it reads as if they can get multiple magical items from each 'boss' or trapped chest) but I can see some plus points to it.

 

[amerigoV]

I play Savage Worlds and I use their random tables from the Fantasy Companion. It brings back my younger days when my first character rolled up Hammer of Thunderbolts after a bit Boss fight (next scene, the DM x-ing out many of the magic tables in the 1e DMG). The players seem to enjoy it as well.

So I dig your system. However, I am not sure that jives with D&D these days - so I'll leave that to other to opine.

 

[DaveW]

I don't know if i'd use your exact system (it reads as if they can get multiple magical items from each 'boss' or trapped chest) but I can see some plus points to it.

The players roll once, and can only get one item per roll (with the exception of the two healing potions part). Why does it look like they can get multiple items?

It's up to you how often they roll. For example, you could tell the players to roll once on the normal table and once on the magical table after a boss fight.

This means that most of the time they'll find mundane normal treasure on goons and normal baddies, but there's always the chance, a 3/20 chance, that they'll find some magical loot. The chances of them getting a level 5 item is pretty small (3/20*1/10 = 3/200, or 1.5% chance). In addition, the decks are under my control-as I said, nothing in them will seriously overpower any of the players. I retain full control over armor and weapons.

In truth, I'm not really relinquishing that much control to the player. I'm just giving the process the illusion of transparency, by moving what I'd do behind the screen to the front and getting them involved. I control the odds of getting items and what items are available to them, I tell them when they can and cannot roll and on which table. The important point is that the players feel empowered, in control of their own loot, and they definitely appreciated that.

Some more odds:

Getting a Wondrous Item in a normal chest:
3% (3/20*2/10=6/200)

Getting a Magical Item above their Level in a normal chest:
6% (3/20*4/10=12/200)

Finding Money/art item in a normal chest: 66.5% (13/20+(3/20*1/10)=133/200) [including chance of botching magic table roll]

Getting a Level 5 Magical Item:
1.5% (3/20*1/10 = 3/200)

Screwing up a magic table roll for a normal chest:
1.5% (3/20*1/10 = 3/200)

Getting a potion:
21.5% (4/20+(3/20*1/10) = 43/200)

Chance of not getting a magical or wondrous item in a normal chest:
88% (17/20+(3/20*2/10) = 176/200)

Of course, when you are rolling on the magical loot table, your odds are 1/9 (11.1%), as I change the '1' to 're-roll on the magical table' when the players deserve a magical item. The chance of getting a good item is entirely up to how the DM builds the loot decks.

I'm sure there will be a lot of people for whom it'll be a break in verisimilitude and, like treasure parcels in general, it'll have detractors. As a game feature though I think it's potentially nifty.

I agree, there will be some people who will just not like it. I'd like to hear from those people too, and find out their reasons. It will help me to improve my game.

Thanks for the feedback!

-Dave

 

[DaveW]

Posted while I was replying to previous post.

So I dig your system. However, I am not sure that jives with D&D these days - so I'll leave that to other to opine.

D&D belongs to us, we get to decide what belongs and what doesn't. Besides, I can't help but feel that with the Mutation Decks in Gamma World, WoTC would approve of what I'm doing.

Besides, I want your opinion.

-Dave

 

[Gilladian]

I see a couple reasons I wouldn't do this:
1) I give item cards and making them is enough of a pain that I only do it for the items I KNOW the PCs are getting.
2) I want my NPC foes to be able to use their magic against the PCs if it makes sense. Not knowing what they've got (outside weapons and armor) means they can't drink a potion or use a wand.
3) Why would a villain have an art object stuffed in a chest? It should be properly on display, showing off his possession of it. Or something else appropriate to the storyline.
4) And if there are gems/jewelry, I want to have the ability to describe the coffer or jewel-case they're in (and the extra needle trap adorning it!), etc...

Randomness is fun for a while, but I want to be able to take the story a step beyond that!

 

[Pbartender]

66 views, and no-one has any feedback? Nothing to add? No criticisms or suggestions?

Compare to the view to post ratios for other threads. Right now, you're at about 15-1... Typical for this board is between 20-1 to 30-1.

Anyway, my very first thought was...

Cons: It's a lot of work making the decks.

..."It's a neat idea, but it seems like more trouble than it's worth."

In the past, I've done similar things with semi-random treasure.

Most recently, I'd choose four or six options for each magic item treasure parcel, and have the players roll a d6 or a d4. Sometimes I'd have themed parcels -- all the choices were wizard implements, or suits of scale mail armor, or all something related to the Radiant keyword -- so I could throw a bones to a particular player.

That kept the magic item power levels steady, like 4E expects, but introduces the fun of the random roll.

Now, even then, it was a neat idea, and the players enjoyed it for what it's worth but they weren't jumping out of their chairs about it either. It did very quickly get to the point where I was having a hard time finding enough interesting items of a given level to fill it out.

I still do it on occasion for variety, but it's simply too much time and effort to do it all the time.

 

[steeldragons]

This is just a bunch of observations as:
a) I presume, this "deck of cards" business is referring to 4e, which I really know nothing about.
b) I pretty much always randomize my treasure to be completely dependent on the encounter/situation/location/etc. Simply defeating a troll out in a corridor doesn't get you the trolls treasure unless you find its lair, for example.

I will say, other than the "neat/nifty" player involvement angle, it IS merely presenting the "illusion of transparency" as you aptly put it. The player rolling randomly for themselves vs. you rolling on a random table for them. So, I think a lot of people (DMs) would say "thanks but no thanks" based on the amount of work generating the tables/decks would be when they could just as easily use already established published "random loot" tables.

Given the feedback you've received from your players and that they enjoy it (the delusion that they hae some "control" over a die roll) then "Good DM" points for you for engaging and making your players enjoy themselves at your game. I will certainly give you kudos for that even though this "system" is not something I would opt to use myself.

Another observation...an almost assured chance at finding a magic item in EVERY locked and trapped chest?! I think that is...what's "more than generous"? 11% every locked/trapped chest is going to have magic items? Now, I'm ALL FOR high magic settings and characters dripping with magic items. So, if that's the style of campaign world you're working with, then fine. But I feel many other DMs here would find this 11% "chance" per chest to be very (too) high.

And on a "simply curious" note...why when generating the decks with all of the magic items for "arms, hands, feet, etc..." did you NOT include rings?

Seems to me rings, especially in a "high occasion of magic items world" would be a very common find! So, I'm just wondering your thought process for excluding them.

As I said, your players like it and you don't mind the work, have a ball. But not something I think I would use when a) I distribute treasure in ways that make sense to me and b) there are other pre-made random tables already to work from.

Have fun and happy treasure hunting.
--Steel Dragons
EDIT PS: And don't sweat the lack of responses. Sometimes people have stuff to say (in abundance) and sometimes they just don't. My thread on the "Plots and Places" board, http://www.enworld.org/forum/plots-places/284160-orea-world-its-people.html currently has 987 views...and has garndered not a single comment to any of the content...other than someone I'd never seen on here before telling me "thank you" and subsequently deleting the post, so I think it was a mistake.

 

[DaveW]

1) I give item cards and making them is enough of a pain that I only do it for the items I KNOW the PCs are getting.

"It's a neat idea, but it seems like more trouble than it's worth."

I agree, it was a lot of trouble making the cards. But now it's done, I have all the item cards I'll need for any situation. Instead of selecting item cards before the game, I just go through the decks and pick things out.

This is why I wanted to know if anyone would be interested in making a set of freely-available cards, you could just print them out and use them however you see fit.

2) I want my NPC foes to be able to use their magic against the PCs if it makes sense. Not knowing what they've got (outside weapons and armor) means they can't drink a potion or use a wand.

It's certainly a fair point. I suppose to use this system you'd have accept a trade-off there. It's one my players are willing to accept; if they find a healing potion on a dead goon, they're just going to be happy with the loot, not wondering why he didn't gulp it down on his final turn. Everyone is different.

Why would a villain have an art object stuffed in a chest? It should be properly on display, showing off his possession of it. Or something else appropriate to the storyline.
4) And if there are gems/jewelry, I want to have the ability to describe the coffer or jewel-case they're in (and the extra needle trap adorning it!), etc...

If it's important, it would not be random loot. For example, in my last session, there was a hidden room containing the personal effects of the adventurers that the cult had killed. It was full of clothes and other junk, along with three chests. Two were plain and wooden, and one was re-enforced, locked, and trapped. The two basic chests were normal table loot rolls, and the big chest was a magical table loot roll.

Besides, the villain might not care about art items, gold, jewelry, etc. Perhaps he's only interested in magical tomes, and the rest of the stuff he considers worthless. There's a lot of possibilities.

Most recently, I'd choose four or six options for each magic item treasure parcel, and have the players roll a d6 or a d4. Sometimes I'd have themed parcels -- all the choices were wizard implements, or suits of scale mail armor, or all something related to the Radiant keyword -- so I could throw a bones to a particular player.

This is how my idea started, and it evolved into this.

Now, even then, it was a neat idea, and the players enjoyed it for what it's worth but they weren't jumping out of their chairs about it either. It did very quickly get to the point where I was having a hard time finding enough interesting items of a given level to fill it out.

I plan to have around 18 magical items per level, but no swords or armor. As I said, only feet, arm, hand, neck, head and waist slot items are available; 3 of each in the deck. For a 5 man party, that's more than enough.

I still do it on occasion for variety, but it's simply too much time and effort to do it all the time.

It is a lot of time and effort. If the cards were already done and available, along with the loot tables, would you consider using it? If all you had to do was print off the item cards and cut them out, would it be worth the time for you? Let me know!

Thanks for the feedback. Seems like the idea isn't very popular, but I expect this will vary from group to group anyway. As has rightfully been pointed out, it's a lot of work, so it's not something you can really just 'take for a whirl' one night. Not without a large set of item cards anyway.

-Dave