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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7634633" data-attributes="member: 6919838">So we require them to all take proficiency **and** spend ability scores on dex? Both are required to be &quot;good&quot; at stealth, right? Is 16 dex minimum at 1st tier enough? Tier-2 18. Tier 3-4 30?I mean, we are deciding that non-proficiency with 18 dex for +4 to stealth is *not good enough* to be allowed to be chosen in the game at 5th level so it seems clear that say 12 dex and proficiency for the same +4 would also not be good enough to be allowed in the game either right? (For rangers, that is.)Now that we have nailed down both **required and mandated** skills and ability spend minimums for every ranger, we can move on to others.But a quick question, is it true that in your game it is required that if you take one level in ranger you must take 10, or 14 levels in range? I mean the only way &quot;if all rangers learn to vanish snd hide in plain sight&quot; is true is it they are required, right?IMO if your true statement of problem is that somehow it is wrong to have it possible within the cosmos of your game world for a character to get hide in plain sight or vanish without being proficient in stealth, then add &quot;you gain proficiency in stealth if not already proficient&quot; to those features is a far simpler solution. Then, rangers who multi-class out before getting there are not shackled by that narrowed focus.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7634633, member: 6919838"] So we require them to all take proficiency **and** spend ability scores on dex? Both are required to be "good" at stealth, right? Is 16 dex minimum at 1st tier enough? Tier-2 18. Tier 3-4 30? I mean, we are deciding that non-proficiency with 18 dex for +4 to stealth is *not good enough* to be allowed to be chosen in the game at 5th level so it seems clear that say 12 dex and proficiency for the same +4 would also not be good enough to be allowed in the game either right? (For rangers, that is.) Now that we have nailed down both **required and mandated** skills and ability spend minimums for every ranger, we can move on to others. But a quick question, is it true that in your game it is required that if you take one level in ranger you must take 10, or 14 levels in range? I mean the only way "if all rangers learn to vanish snd hide in plain sight" is true is it they are required, right? IMO if your true statement of problem is that somehow it is wrong to have it possible within the cosmos of your game world for a character to get hide in plain sight or vanish without being proficient in stealth, then add "you gain proficiency in stealth if not already proficient" to those features is a far simpler solution. Then, rangers who multi-class out before getting there are not shackled by that narrowed focus. [/QUOTE]

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