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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mengu" data-source="post: 4447290" data-attributes="member: 65726">I don't see it that way. The hobgoblins are already in combat. They are fighting. They can't be surprised by your or anyone else's attack at this point. You are essentially walking into an ongoing fight. A more clear example of this situation would be your group noticing plumes of smoke from a village up ahead. You dash to see what's going on, and see orcs raiding a village. At that point you roll initiative to join the villagers against the orcs, but the fight is ongoing, so you wouldn't get any surprise bonuses. The bar fight is similar, except there is no time in between your taking note of the fight, and entering the fray. In the village example, the fight begins with the orcs attacking the village, and you enter the fight when you get there. In the bar fight, the fight begins with the 4 hobgoblins bursting through the door and attacking some bar patrons. You enter the fight after that. Now if the target of the ambush wasn't some bar patrons, but your party, then the right thing to do would be to give your characters perception checks (or use passive perception) to react to the ambush quicker. But as it stands, the initial attack does not affect the players, it is part of the story, as such, no rolls are needed.</blockquote>