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Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8431409" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>This is just wrong. I've not run a fully "sandbox" game ever that I can think of, and the closest to one was in 1991.</p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure that I posted this already upthread: A sandbox game is based on GM authority over <em>backstory</em>, plus a form of player authority over <em>situation</em>, which is achieved by the players declaring actions to move their PCs from A to B in the sandbox, and thereby triggering the situation that is latent in the GM-authored backstory about B.</p><p></p><p>The simplest version is something like <em>We go over the hills to where we've heard there's a dragon's cave</em>.</p><p></p><p>Most of the GMing I've done over the past 35 years has been based around GM authority over situation as the default, with shared authority over backstory (particularly at the point of PC build) and a readiness to accept player suggestions. And then faithful adherence to the action resolution rules - including Let it Ride - to work out what happens.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Are you familiar with Threat Clocks from Apocalypse World? Here is the explanation (page 143):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">A countdown clock is a reminder to you as MC that your threats have impulse, direction, plans, intentions, the will to sustain action and to respond coherently to others’.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">When you create a threat, if you have a vision of its future, give it a countdown clock. You can also add countdown clocks to threats you’ve already created.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Around the clock, note some things that’ll happen:</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">• Before 9:00, that thing’s coming, but preventable. What are the clues? What are the triggers? What are the steps?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">• Between 9:00 and 12:00, that thing is inevitable, but there’s still time to brace for impact. What signifies it?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">• At 12:00, the threat gets its full, active expression. What is it?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">As you play, advance the clocks, each at their own pace, by marking their segments.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Countdown clocks are both descriptive and prescriptive. Descriptive: when something you’ve listed happens, advance</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">the clock to that point. Prescriptive: when you advance the clock otherwise, it causes the things you’ve listed. Furthermore, countdown clocks can be derailed: when something happens that changes circumstances so that the countdown no longer makes sense, just scribble it out.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">For the most part, list things that are beyond the players’ characters’ control: NPCs’ decisions and actions, conditions in a population or a landscape, off-screen relations between rival compounds, the instability of a window into the world’s psychic maelstrom. When you list something within the players’ characters’ control, always list it with an “if,” implied or explicit: “<em>if</em> Bish goes out into the ruins,” not “Bish goes out into the ruins.” Prep circumstances, pressures, developing NPC actions, not (and again, I’m not [m]ucking around here) NOT future scenes you intend to lead the PCs to.</p><p></p><p>So before 9 pm, the captain dies, signalling the curse; and if the PCs are on the Albers, they meet the Sea Maiden. If they don't destroy it or cleanse it (neither happened in my game - the only attempt made to cleanse was via an Elven Lament that only helps Elves) then at 9 pm the Albers encounters the Sea Maiden in ghost form. If nothing is done at that point to save the Albers, then at 12 o'clock it gets dragged down to Hell with the Sea Maiden.</p><p></p><p>(The module does not have this structure. It has two encounters with the Sea Maiden. As I've mentioned a couple of times now in this thread, and as I mentioned in <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/maiden-voyage-penumbra-d20-module.393493/" target="_blank">the old thread</a>, I deliberately departed from the module at this point because that structure was not satisfactory - it sacrificed situation for plot, I suspect as a concession to certain demands of 3E D&D game play.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>The eclipse is colour, nothing more. (For very high level D&D PCs that might not be the case - they might have the ability to enter and even change the heavens. But for low-level D&D, and for Burning Wheel, it is colour.) Likewise the fight with Ox - in my campaign, this was an opportunity for the Elven PC to evince his Belief that he will prove himself as an Elf among the humans.</p><p></p><p>The key framing events - as I already posted upthread - are the captain's death and the encounter with the Sea Maiden. These are situation - they call the players to action. Those actions shape how things unfold: in our game that included the inadvertent summoning of Orlando, the ghostly captain of the Sea Maiden, which meant that one PC could not board the Sea Maiden; the interrogation of Selene; the murder by one of the PCs of the evil wizard Vincenzo and the summoning of his spirit; the collapse of the crew's morale over a series of unsuccessful attempts to engage with them (driven mostly though not completely by the PC wizard); and in the end, the Albers being dragged down to Hell with most hands still aboard.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is all just stuff you're making up.</p><p></p><p>(1) The players chose what their PCs did: they engaged with various NPCs, they took various actions aboard the Albers and Sea Maiden, they summoned dead spirits, they murdered people, they lied to people, they told the truth to some other people, they rescued some and failed to rescue others.</p><p></p><p>(2) The PCs were not "trapped" aboard that ship. Here is the salient quote from the actual play report:</p><p></p><p></p><p>That could have been attempted at any time. One of the PCs could turn into a bird and fly away if he wished to.</p><p></p><p>The PCs stayed on the vessel because the players chose to have them do so, because I was presenting situations that engaged the player-authored PC Beliefs - for the wizard and wizard/assassin, the relationship between Vincenzo and another wizard to whom they both had an intense relationship stemming from their troubled pasts (that was why they boarded the vessel in the first place); for the Elves and the Princess's retainer, various more "ephemeral" Beliefs concerning how they wish to live their lives and relate to those around them.</p><p></p><p>The mystery in Maiden Voyage is ultimately colour. The point of the module, as I see it and certainly as we played it, isn't to solve the mystery. It's to see what happens to the PCs and their relationships with the NPCs. It's a drama, not a procedural. That's what made me compare it to The Crimson Bull. And is why I said it is one of the best modules I've used.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8431409, member: 42582"] This is just wrong. I've not run a fully "sandbox" game ever that I can think of, and the closest to one was in 1991. I'm pretty sure that I posted this already upthread: A sandbox game is based on GM authority over [I]backstory[/I], plus a form of player authority over [I]situation[/I], which is achieved by the players declaring actions to move their PCs from A to B in the sandbox, and thereby triggering the situation that is latent in the GM-authored backstory about B. The simplest version is something like [I]We go over the hills to where we've heard there's a dragon's cave[/I]. Most of the GMing I've done over the past 35 years has been based around GM authority over situation as the default, with shared authority over backstory (particularly at the point of PC build) and a readiness to accept player suggestions. And then faithful adherence to the action resolution rules - including Let it Ride - to work out what happens. Are you familiar with Threat Clocks from Apocalypse World? Here is the explanation (page 143): [INDENT]A countdown clock is a reminder to you as MC that your threats have impulse, direction, plans, intentions, the will to sustain action and to respond coherently to others’.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]When you create a threat, if you have a vision of its future, give it a countdown clock. You can also add countdown clocks to threats you’ve already created.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]Around the clock, note some things that’ll happen:[/INDENT] [INDENT]• Before 9:00, that thing’s coming, but preventable. What are the clues? What are the triggers? What are the steps?[/INDENT] [INDENT]• Between 9:00 and 12:00, that thing is inevitable, but there’s still time to brace for impact. What signifies it?[/INDENT] [INDENT]• At 12:00, the threat gets its full, active expression. What is it?[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]As you play, advance the clocks, each at their own pace, by marking their segments.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]Countdown clocks are both descriptive and prescriptive. Descriptive: when something you’ve listed happens, advance[/INDENT] [INDENT]the clock to that point. Prescriptive: when you advance the clock otherwise, it causes the things you’ve listed. Furthermore, countdown clocks can be derailed: when something happens that changes circumstances so that the countdown no longer makes sense, just scribble it out.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]For the most part, list things that are beyond the players’ characters’ control: NPCs’ decisions and actions, conditions in a population or a landscape, off-screen relations between rival compounds, the instability of a window into the world’s psychic maelstrom. When you list something within the players’ characters’ control, always list it with an “if,” implied or explicit: “[I]if[/I] Bish goes out into the ruins,” not “Bish goes out into the ruins.” Prep circumstances, pressures, developing NPC actions, not (and again, I’m not [m]ucking around here) NOT future scenes you intend to lead the PCs to.[/INDENT] So before 9 pm, the captain dies, signalling the curse; and if the PCs are on the Albers, they meet the Sea Maiden. If they don't destroy it or cleanse it (neither happened in my game - the only attempt made to cleanse was via an Elven Lament that only helps Elves) then at 9 pm the Albers encounters the Sea Maiden in ghost form. If nothing is done at that point to save the Albers, then at 12 o'clock it gets dragged down to Hell with the Sea Maiden. (The module does not have this structure. It has two encounters with the Sea Maiden. As I've mentioned a couple of times now in this thread, and as I mentioned in [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/maiden-voyage-penumbra-d20-module.393493/]the old thread[/url], I deliberately departed from the module at this point because that structure was not satisfactory - it sacrificed situation for plot, I suspect as a concession to certain demands of 3E D&D game play.) The eclipse is colour, nothing more. (For very high level D&D PCs that might not be the case - they might have the ability to enter and even change the heavens. But for low-level D&D, and for Burning Wheel, it is colour.) Likewise the fight with Ox - in my campaign, this was an opportunity for the Elven PC to evince his Belief that he will prove himself as an Elf among the humans. The key framing events - as I already posted upthread - are the captain's death and the encounter with the Sea Maiden. These are situation - they call the players to action. Those actions shape how things unfold: in our game that included the inadvertent summoning of Orlando, the ghostly captain of the Sea Maiden, which meant that one PC could not board the Sea Maiden; the interrogation of Selene; the murder by one of the PCs of the evil wizard Vincenzo and the summoning of his spirit; the collapse of the crew's morale over a series of unsuccessful attempts to engage with them (driven mostly though not completely by the PC wizard); and in the end, the Albers being dragged down to Hell with most hands still aboard. This is all just stuff you're making up. (1) The players chose what their PCs did: they engaged with various NPCs, they took various actions aboard the Albers and Sea Maiden, they summoned dead spirits, they murdered people, they lied to people, they told the truth to some other people, they rescued some and failed to rescue others. (2) The PCs were not "trapped" aboard that ship. Here is the salient quote from the actual play report: That could have been attempted at any time. One of the PCs could turn into a bird and fly away if he wished to. The PCs stayed on the vessel because the players chose to have them do so, because I was presenting situations that engaged the player-authored PC Beliefs - for the wizard and wizard/assassin, the relationship between Vincenzo and another wizard to whom they both had an intense relationship stemming from their troubled pasts (that was why they boarded the vessel in the first place); for the Elves and the Princess's retainer, various more "ephemeral" Beliefs concerning how they wish to live their lives and relate to those around them. The mystery in Maiden Voyage is ultimately colour. The point of the module, as I see it and certainly as we played it, isn't to solve the mystery. It's to see what happens to the PCs and their relationships with the NPCs. It's a drama, not a procedural. That's what made me compare it to The Crimson Bull. And is why I said it is one of the best modules I've used. [/QUOTE]
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