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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8435462" data-attributes="member: 29398">You don't get it: the term brings the concept with it, and if you use the wrong term the wrong concept follows it.&nbsp; It's considerably more than a simple semantics argument.The state of win-lose cannot be determined without an end state attached, as win-lose is a determination that includes finality.&nbsp; The state of goal achievement, be it en route to a win-lose determination or dissociated from such, does not carry the same sense of finality as multiple goals may need to be achieved to ensure one win.&nbsp; That said, achieving a goal can be an end state in itself in situations where there is no win-lose determination to be made (e.g. trying to set a personal best time on your evening jog) or when the win-lose state is at most tangential to the goal achieved (e.g. [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] 's example of successfully defending against a chokehold [goal] yet tapping out anyway [loss]).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8435462, member: 29398"] You don't get it: the term brings the concept with it, and if you use the wrong term the wrong concept follows it. It's considerably more than a simple semantics argument. The state of win-lose cannot be determined without an end state attached, as win-lose is a determination that includes finality. The state of goal achievement, be it en route to a win-lose determination or dissociated from such, does not carry the same sense of finality as multiple goals may need to be achieved to ensure one win. That said, achieving a goal [I]can[/I] be an end state in itself in situations where there is no win-lose determination to be made (e.g. trying to set a personal best time on your evening jog) or when the win-lose state is at most tangential to the goal achieved (e.g. [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] 's example of successfully defending against a chokehold [goal] yet tapping out anyway [loss]). [/QUOTE]

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