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Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8437268" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>My objection to that Justin Alexander definition is that it is extremely over-inclusive! Here it is:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">A sandbox campaign is one in which the players are empowered to either choose or define what their next scenario is going to be.</p><p></p><p>So here's a completely serviceable way of playing a D&D campaign: every week (or month, or whatever) the players buy a new module and ask the GM to run it for them. They make sure the module is in the right level range for their PCs. And they gradually build their PCs up.</p><p></p><p>So the campaign goes - in virtue of those player choices - T1 (Hommlet), B2 (KotB), B3 (Palace of the Silver Princess), A1-A2 (ie the high notes of the Slave Lords), S2 (WPM), C2 (Ghost Tower), G1-G3 (Giants) at which point the PCs retire in glory.</p><p></p><p>But I don't think anyone would call that a sandbox campaign. The choosing of the scenarios happens completely independently of the players declaring any actions for their PCs.</p><p></p><p>I mean, the players could even choose to play some or all of the DL modules in this sort of set-up!</p><p></p><p>When we get to the next bit of what Justin Alexander said - "Hexcrawls are a common sandbox structure because geographical navigation becomes a default method for choosing scenarios, which are keyed to the hexes you’re navigating between" - we see that it is one instance of the definition of sandbox I gave upthread: <em>there is a backstory/setting, with latent situations ("scenarios"), which the players "activate" by declaring appropriate sorts of actions for their PCs (especially "We move from A to B" or "We look around").</em></p><p></p><p></p><p>So would you count my example of the players bringing a module a week as a sandbox? Or do you agree with me, and with what is implicit in Alexander's actual example of the hexcrawl, that the selection of scenarios (= activation of situtions) must take place via player action declarations for their PCs? And if the latter, how do you envisage that working other than the players engaging with the GM's pre-authored content?</p><p></p><p>It need not be via moving on a map hexcrawl style. Instead the players could have their PCs wander a city triggering NPCs - as in [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s example of the factions. But the basic principle - activate situations that are latent in the GM's setting material - would be the same.</p><p></p><p></p><p><em>Story before </em>is not about <em>notes</em>. Apocalypse World uses notes - fronts, threats, associated clocks, etc - but is a "story now" game. (The acknowledgements page even says that the whole follows from Edwards's "Story Now" essay. Perhaps that's an overstatement but it tells us something about how Baker views his game.)</p><p></p><p>I've never played Sorcerer but I believe it uses notes. HeroWars is set in Glorantha, and so very much uses notes, but is a quintessential "story now" game.</p><p></p><p><em>Story before</em> is about pre-authorship of <em>plot</em>, of <em>resolution</em>. [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s example of the PC striking a deal with the faction <em>looks</em> to me like story before, because it seems to me that the options for that interaction are already foreclosed - either the PC walks away, or the PC agrees to raid the outpost - and then the GM pulls out the outpost maps and notes they just happened to have ready-to-hand! Of course I can't say this for sure, because [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s example didn't describe how any of the fiction was actually established, so I'm conjecturing based on a general sense of how D&D is often played.</p><p></p><p>Here's an example of a negotiation with a faction leader in a "story now" game (I'm the player; my fried is the GM; the RPG is Burning Wheel); I think you've read it before, because you-posrepped the post I'm quoting from:</p><p></p><p>For all I know, the GM had a lever-arch folder of notes and stats for his elves! What makes it "story now" rather than "story before" is that the plot - ie what do the elves do, vis-a-vis the protagonists (Thurgon's) desire to have them join with him - <em>follows from the actual process of playing the game and resolving the actions</em>.</p><p></p><p>Here is another example of the contrast between story now and story before, which I may have already posted in this thread; in this case, the notes are in both cases found in the published Episode Book for Prince Valiant:</p><p>Both scenarios take up multiple pages (a bit less than 2 for The Crimson Bull, a bit less than 3 for A Prodigal Son). What makes one "story now" and the other "story before" is the different ways they present their respective situations, the way they manage passage from event to event, the way they frame the resolution, etc.[/indent]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8437268, member: 42582"] My objection to that Justin Alexander definition is that it is extremely over-inclusive! Here it is: [indent]A sandbox campaign is one in which the players are empowered to either choose or define what their next scenario is going to be.[/indent] So here's a completely serviceable way of playing a D&D campaign: every week (or month, or whatever) the players buy a new module and ask the GM to run it for them. They make sure the module is in the right level range for their PCs. And they gradually build their PCs up. So the campaign goes - in virtue of those player choices - T1 (Hommlet), B2 (KotB), B3 (Palace of the Silver Princess), A1-A2 (ie the high notes of the Slave Lords), S2 (WPM), C2 (Ghost Tower), G1-G3 (Giants) at which point the PCs retire in glory. But I don't think anyone would call that a sandbox campaign. The choosing of the scenarios happens completely independently of the players declaring any actions for their PCs. I mean, the players could even choose to play some or all of the DL modules in this sort of set-up! When we get to the next bit of what Justin Alexander said - "Hexcrawls are a common sandbox structure because geographical navigation becomes a default method for choosing scenarios, which are keyed to the hexes you’re navigating between" - we see that it is one instance of the definition of sandbox I gave upthread: [I]there is a backstory/setting, with latent situations ("scenarios"), which the players "activate" by declaring appropriate sorts of actions for their PCs (especially "We move from A to B" or "We look around").[/I] So would you count my example of the players bringing a module a week as a sandbox? Or do you agree with me, and with what is implicit in Alexander's actual example of the hexcrawl, that the selection of scenarios (= activation of situtions) must take place via player action declarations for their PCs? And if the latter, how do you envisage that working other than the players engaging with the GM's pre-authored content? It need not be via moving on a map hexcrawl style. Instead the players could have their PCs wander a city triggering NPCs - as in [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s example of the factions. But the basic principle - activate situations that are latent in the GM's setting material - would be the same. [I]Story before [/I]is not about [I]notes[/I]. Apocalypse World uses notes - fronts, threats, associated clocks, etc - but is a "story now" game. (The acknowledgements page even says that the whole follows from Edwards's "Story Now" essay. Perhaps that's an overstatement but it tells us something about how Baker views his game.) I've never played Sorcerer but I believe it uses notes. HeroWars is set in Glorantha, and so very much uses notes, but is a quintessential "story now" game. [I]Story before[/I] is about pre-authorship of [I]plot[/I], of [I]resolution[/I]. [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s example of the PC striking a deal with the faction [I]looks[/I] to me like story before, because it seems to me that the options for that interaction are already foreclosed - either the PC walks away, or the PC agrees to raid the outpost - and then the GM pulls out the outpost maps and notes they just happened to have ready-to-hand! Of course I can't say this for sure, because [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s example didn't describe how any of the fiction was actually established, so I'm conjecturing based on a general sense of how D&D is often played. Here's an example of a negotiation with a faction leader in a "story now" game (I'm the player; my fried is the GM; the RPG is Burning Wheel); I think you've read it before, because you-posrepped the post I'm quoting from: For all I know, the GM had a lever-arch folder of notes and stats for his elves! What makes it "story now" rather than "story before" is that the plot - ie what do the elves do, vis-a-vis the protagonists (Thurgon's) desire to have them join with him - [I]follows from the actual process of playing the game and resolving the actions[/I]. Here is another example of the contrast between story now and story before, which I may have already posted in this thread; in this case, the notes are in both cases found in the published Episode Book for Prince Valiant: Both scenarios take up multiple pages (a bit less than 2 for The Crimson Bull, a bit less than 3 for A Prodigal Son). What makes one "story now" and the other "story before" is the different ways they present their respective situations, the way they manage passage from event to event, the way they frame the resolution, etc.[/indent] [/QUOTE]
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