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Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="Crimson Longinus" data-source="post: 8437792" data-attributes="member: 7025508"><p>Sure. But sometimes player input might result the game stalling and nothing interesting happening. Or something happening that the players actually didn't want to happen. And I don't think it is wrong for GM to nudge things into more interesting or preferable directions on such occasions.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly letting them to find it in the next place they look effectively is the GM letting them find it? The illusion just is that the players feel they did something to contribute to it, whilst in reality they didn't. And I don't see how that is bad thing.</p><p></p><p>And yeah, it was a boring linear scenario and in almost every instance the use of force could be avoided by setting up the situation better in the first place. (I guess that's why I haven't had to use force in my current campaign! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ) But none of us are perfect, perhaps not even me! Sometimes you set up the situation thoughtlessly, and then in actual game it just doesn't quite work. And if you can fix it by rearranging things behind curtains a bit, why not?</p><p></p><p></p><p>But lets say force is used to achieve this. Why is that bad?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yea, but this is where it gets muddy. What even is force?</p><p></p><p>Let's say this is the scenario. The player whose sister is missing is really invested to this storyline. It is the driving force of their character. This is important to the player. The characters infiltrate the cultist hideout. The PC's sister has joined the cult, but the characters don't know this, they just think that the cult has kidnapped her. Though they suspect things might not be quite as they seem. Also they have one new character. One player's character died in the previous session, and they're now playing a hot-headed fire sorcerer. Before this (and when the GM designed the scenario) the party had no AoE to speak off. They have a clever plan to get in unnoticed, but due a series of unlucky rolls and perhaps some bad decisions they get discovered just as they're about to enter the main chamber where the cultists are gathered for some sort of ritual. Unbeknownst to characters, one of the hooded cultist is the PCs sister. Some characters, including the one looking for his sister would want to negotiate, but the sorcerer, assuming that battle is about to ensue and seeing several cultist clumped together decides to take out as many of them as they can and unleashes a fireball. This fireball is powerful enough to kill any cultist who fails their save. Let's also assume that it is an established rule in this group that only PCs get death saves, and any non-PC who runs out of hit points is dead.</p><p></p><p>Assuming the GM has predetermined which cultist is the sister and she is in the fireball's area, is it force if they fudge her saving throw so that she survives? Or what if they simply 'switch' her with insignificant cultist that is standing on the edge of the room and thus are not hit? Or what if the GM designed the sisters location to be quantum cultist in the first place? Whichever cultist survives is revealed to be the character's sister when it is most appropriate? Which of these are force, and is any of this a bad thing?</p><p></p><p>And yes, I am sure the need to use force could have been avoided with better foresight, but as we now, that doesn't always happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have to say that this is almost certainly a confirmation bias. You only know of the instances you noticed it! For example in the above scenario all examples of GM chicanery would be pretty much completely undetectable to the players.</p><p></p><p>And whenever I (rarely) use something forceish, it is almost always just changing some things the players didn't know of in the first place.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean if we are talking about GM misleading the players, to me it would be <em>far</em> more questionable to GM to say that a creature is level one minion whereas in reality they're level ten solo controller, than just relay the what the characters see and that turning out not to be the whole truth.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crimson Longinus, post: 8437792, member: 7025508"] Sure. But sometimes player input might result the game stalling and nothing interesting happening. Or something happening that the players actually didn't want to happen. And I don't think it is wrong for GM to nudge things into more interesting or preferable directions on such occasions. Certainly letting them to find it in the next place they look effectively is the GM letting them find it? The illusion just is that the players feel they did something to contribute to it, whilst in reality they didn't. And I don't see how that is bad thing. And yeah, it was a boring linear scenario and in almost every instance the use of force could be avoided by setting up the situation better in the first place. (I guess that's why I haven't had to use force in my current campaign! ;) ) But none of us are perfect, perhaps not even me! Sometimes you set up the situation thoughtlessly, and then in actual game it just doesn't quite work. And if you can fix it by rearranging things behind curtains a bit, why not? But lets say force is used to achieve this. Why is that bad? Yea, but this is where it gets muddy. What even is force? Let's say this is the scenario. The player whose sister is missing is really invested to this storyline. It is the driving force of their character. This is important to the player. The characters infiltrate the cultist hideout. The PC's sister has joined the cult, but the characters don't know this, they just think that the cult has kidnapped her. Though they suspect things might not be quite as they seem. Also they have one new character. One player's character died in the previous session, and they're now playing a hot-headed fire sorcerer. Before this (and when the GM designed the scenario) the party had no AoE to speak off. They have a clever plan to get in unnoticed, but due a series of unlucky rolls and perhaps some bad decisions they get discovered just as they're about to enter the main chamber where the cultists are gathered for some sort of ritual. Unbeknownst to characters, one of the hooded cultist is the PCs sister. Some characters, including the one looking for his sister would want to negotiate, but the sorcerer, assuming that battle is about to ensue and seeing several cultist clumped together decides to take out as many of them as they can and unleashes a fireball. This fireball is powerful enough to kill any cultist who fails their save. Let's also assume that it is an established rule in this group that only PCs get death saves, and any non-PC who runs out of hit points is dead. Assuming the GM has predetermined which cultist is the sister and she is in the fireball's area, is it force if they fudge her saving throw so that she survives? Or what if they simply 'switch' her with insignificant cultist that is standing on the edge of the room and thus are not hit? Or what if the GM designed the sisters location to be quantum cultist in the first place? Whichever cultist survives is revealed to be the character's sister when it is most appropriate? Which of these are force, and is any of this a bad thing? And yes, I am sure the need to use force could have been avoided with better foresight, but as we now, that doesn't always happen. I have to say that this is almost certainly a confirmation bias. You only know of the instances you noticed it! For example in the above scenario all examples of GM chicanery would be pretty much completely undetectable to the players. And whenever I (rarely) use something forceish, it is almost always just changing some things the players didn't know of in the first place. I mean if we are talking about GM misleading the players, to me it would be [I]far[/I] more questionable to GM to say that a creature is level one minion whereas in reality they're level ten solo controller, than just relay the what the characters see and that turning out not to be the whole truth. [/QUOTE]
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