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Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8438363" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Well, here are some of the things I took away from the comparison:</p><p></p><p>* In my Burning Wheel, game, I the player established the dramatic context for my PC as a (the last, seemingly) Knight of the Iron Tower. This then informed subsequent events: I used Circles to meet a former knight of my (ie Thurgon's) order (Frederick) who was able to ferry Thurgon and Aramina along the river. It also informed the GM's framing of the episode with the knight in the crypt (described in spoilered part of the OP of <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/player-authored-plot-in-rpging.681631/" target="_blank">this thread</a>). The difference between this being player-authored and a premise for framing, and something GM-authored that has to be learned by way of "exploration"-oriented action declarations is profound. We can see just one way the difference can manifest in [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER]'s example of the accidentally fireballed sister.</p><p></p><p>* The difference between adjudicating a search by way of map-and-key resolution (the sandbox process described by [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] upthread) and by way of a Scavenging check is also pretty big. The former depends on the GM's pre-authorship: if there is nothing to find then we either have a moment of play that falls flat ("We search - what do we find?" "Nothing" or even runs the risk of stalling, if the players won't accept that "Nothing" is the truth and think they have to declare further actions (eg it's not enough to search the mattress and the fireplace - we have to pull out the stuffing, and stick our heads up the chimney). This can't happen with the Scavenging check, because either is succeeds and Thurgon finds what he was looking for, or it fails and some other consequence ensues - in this case, the Orcs have arrived.</p><p></p><p>* I've already posted upthread that I would love to see an actual play example, from "living sandbox" play, in which a social resolution unfolds in which it is the <em>PC's dramatic need</em>, rather than the <em>NPC's</em>, that is at the forefront of things. (In Thurgon's case, this was the need to restore Auxol, his ancestral estate, to its former glory.)</p><p></p><p>I don't know where you are inviting me to go with this.</p><p></p><p>If someone thinks that anything other than fixed backstory is objectionable; and if they think that any sort of "soft move" is softballing; then they have to suck up the fact that the sister might get fireballed unknowingly, producing what might seem an anticlimactic outcome.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, if someone wants "no failure offscreen" (in this case, the key offscreen and unrevealed moment is the sister joining the cultists) - certainly a preference of mine - then they have to vary one or more of the above parameters.</p><p></p><p>I don't see the point of <em>pretending</em> that backstory is immutable, and of <em>seemingly </em>avoiding soft moves, and then having the GM <em>secretly </em>fudge the identity/location of the sister. That seems like an ad hoc solution to a mismatched set of resolution systems and preferences - roughly speaking, the use of Gygax's mechanics to play out a DL-type story - and not an approach that stands on its own merits.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8438363, member: 42582"] Well, here are some of the things I took away from the comparison: * In my Burning Wheel, game, I the player established the dramatic context for my PC as a (the last, seemingly) Knight of the Iron Tower. This then informed subsequent events: I used Circles to meet a former knight of my (ie Thurgon's) order (Frederick) who was able to ferry Thurgon and Aramina along the river. It also informed the GM's framing of the episode with the knight in the crypt (described in spoilered part of the OP of [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/player-authored-plot-in-rpging.681631/']this thread[/URL]). The difference between this being player-authored and a premise for framing, and something GM-authored that has to be learned by way of "exploration"-oriented action declarations is profound. We can see just one way the difference can manifest in [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER]'s example of the accidentally fireballed sister. * The difference between adjudicating a search by way of map-and-key resolution (the sandbox process described by [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] upthread) and by way of a Scavenging check is also pretty big. The former depends on the GM's pre-authorship: if there is nothing to find then we either have a moment of play that falls flat ("We search - what do we find?" "Nothing" or even runs the risk of stalling, if the players won't accept that "Nothing" is the truth and think they have to declare further actions (eg it's not enough to search the mattress and the fireplace - we have to pull out the stuffing, and stick our heads up the chimney). This can't happen with the Scavenging check, because either is succeeds and Thurgon finds what he was looking for, or it fails and some other consequence ensues - in this case, the Orcs have arrived. * I've already posted upthread that I would love to see an actual play example, from "living sandbox" play, in which a social resolution unfolds in which it is the [I]PC's dramatic need[/I], rather than the [I]NPC's[/I], that is at the forefront of things. (In Thurgon's case, this was the need to restore Auxol, his ancestral estate, to its former glory.) I don't know where you are inviting me to go with this. If someone thinks that anything other than fixed backstory is objectionable; and if they think that any sort of "soft move" is softballing; then they have to suck up the fact that the sister might get fireballed unknowingly, producing what might seem an anticlimactic outcome. Conversely, if someone wants "no failure offscreen" (in this case, the key offscreen and unrevealed moment is the sister joining the cultists) - certainly a preference of mine - then they have to vary one or more of the above parameters. I don't see the point of [I]pretending[/I] that backstory is immutable, and of [I]seemingly [/I]avoiding soft moves, and then having the GM [I]secretly [/I]fudge the identity/location of the sister. That seems like an ad hoc solution to a mismatched set of resolution systems and preferences - roughly speaking, the use of Gygax's mechanics to play out a DL-type story - and not an approach that stands on its own merits. [/QUOTE]
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