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Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8439407" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Well, all RPGing needs <em>someone </em>to frame scenes in <em>some</em> fashion or other. Otherwise there is no context for the players to declare actions for their PCs.</p><p></p><p>And all RPGing involves skipping over the passage of time between scenes - otherwise the PCs would never arrive at the dungeon entrance, at the next town, etc.</p><p></p><p>So it's really about how scenes are framed, isn't it? Eg are they treated as extrapolations, via "causal"/"naturalistic" reasoning, from the backstory plus past events? Are they opportunities to introduce some colour and let players have their PCs shine (which I think is how I interpret the description of OC/neo-trad play)? Or are they deliberate attempts to provoke a "crisis" or at least a thematically/dramatically meaningful choice from the players vis-a-vis their PCs? That last one is what I'm calling "situation first".</p><p></p><p>I don't see situation first as <em>coercive</em>. It doesn't involve any more authority over the fiction than backstory first, as best I can tell. It does locate the exercise of that authority <em>during play </em>- the GM <em>framing a scene </em>is the counterpart to the player <em>declaring an action</em>, which also happens in the course of play. I think where assumptions about map-and-key methods are strong, then that shifting of authorship from <em>before </em>to <em>during</em> - which also has the result that the GM's role <em>during play</em> is more than just neutrally refereeing and naturalistically extrapolating - might be surprising.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This claim isn't true.</p><p></p><p>Here is the opening scene of Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>START</strong></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">For the Dungeon Master: Read the <strong>BACKGROUND </strong>and <strong>Players’ Start</strong> to your players. Allow them to copy down the verse clue to the location of the cavern, if they ask. Explain to them that they are now on a narrow pathway that wends ever deep into the mountains. The sun is just emerging over the peaks to the east; it is time for them to set forth. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>For the Players:</strong> Your party has been gathered by agents of the Margrave of the March of Bissel. He tells you that there are “political considerations,” which he does not explain, that prevent him from searching for Iggwilv’s trove himself. However, it is vital that the treasure not fall into the hands of his enemies. Your party’s goal is to get the treasure before Bissel’s enemies do. [What follows is a discussion of the support provided by the Margrave to the PCs, and their obligations to him in respect of repayment.]</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">An examination of your map reveals that the track through the mountains has numerous branches. At the end of each track is a number, evidently standing for something unknown. The agents of the Margrave cannot tell you anything about their significance, except that it is likely that at one of the sites are the caverns you seek. Obviously, the map is incomplete, for from what you know of this part of the world, there are mountains where nothing but blank space is shown on the chart. With this map you must somehow find where the treasure is hidden. The more direct your route to the caverns, the less the likelihood of injury or death from the many perils of the journey. A scrap of parchment with a bit of doggerel on it might be a clue, or it might be of no use whatsoever, save to mislead you.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">[What follows is the verse.]</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">After a journey of a sen’night your band has reached the foothills of the Yatils without incident. Before you is the winding path leading into the grim mountains.</p><p></p><p>This is not a compelling scene. It's a location on a map.</p><p></p><p>Here's the opening of the CoC module <em>The Vanishing Conjurer</em>:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">It is a pleasant weekday in the latter half of the month of June, 192-. In London, one of the investigators is contacted by an old friend, Howard Horne, who is a theatrical agent working in London's West End. Horne sends the investigator four tickets for a conjuring show taking place that evening at a small theatre of Drury Lane. A small note scribble on Horne's business card attached to the tickets gives no more details about what the investigators might expected, but Horne appears to require their help in a matter of some urgency. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The show starts at 7.30, and lasts for around two hours. There are maybe two hundred people in the audience, half-filling the theatre. . . . It is a rather tireseome affair, as none of the participants are especially entertaining or outstanding practitioners of their art. Come the second interval, it is likely that some of the investigators will be wondering whether to bother staying any longer, but it is at that moment that Horne joins them. . . . </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Horne makes no mention of the problems he referred to in his note. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The third part of the show drags its weary way towards the finale . . . Once the show is over, Horne invites the party to join him for a meal and a drink . . . His brisk, bustling manner doesn't allow anyone space to refuse his invitation.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">[There is then around 600 words of narration of what Horne says to the PCs]</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Horne can attempt to answer any questions the investigators have . . . When there are no more questions, Howard Horne gets up to leave, though before he deals out his card to everyone and asks them to get in touch as soon as they have any news, or they need any more information.</p><p></p><p>That's not a compelling scene. It's just the GM providing the players with a whole lot of backstory and a mission for their PCs.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Backstory first" doesn't mean the GM reveals initial backstory. It is about what has the priority as far as the fiction is concerned. In the living sandbox, the GM frames scenes by referring to the backstory they have prepared.</p><p></p><p>And I've repeatedly noted that any situation needs backstory. The issue is what has priority - pre-authored backstory, or the situation. If you read my accounts of BW play (eg post 1229 not too far upthread), I think you'll see the difference in the relationship between backstory and situation.</p><p></p><p>What does <em>players do stuff </em>mean? I assume you don't mean they eat chips. Do you mean they roll dice? Do you mean they declare actions? How do those declared actions affect the process of "updating" the setting? This is part of the DL modules, but I assume you don't count those as a living sandbox.</p><p></p><p>And when you say <em>the updated backstory/setting elements get used as the starting point of the next loop</em> you seem to be agreeing with me that it is backstory first! The fact that the backstory is constantly changing doesn't meant that it's not coming first. Your own statement shows the priority of the backstory, authored by the GM, as the input into situation/framing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8439407, member: 42582"] Well, all RPGing needs [I]someone [/I]to frame scenes in [I]some[/I] fashion or other. Otherwise there is no context for the players to declare actions for their PCs. And all RPGing involves skipping over the passage of time between scenes - otherwise the PCs would never arrive at the dungeon entrance, at the next town, etc. So it's really about how scenes are framed, isn't it? Eg are they treated as extrapolations, via "causal"/"naturalistic" reasoning, from the backstory plus past events? Are they opportunities to introduce some colour and let players have their PCs shine (which I think is how I interpret the description of OC/neo-trad play)? Or are they deliberate attempts to provoke a "crisis" or at least a thematically/dramatically meaningful choice from the players vis-a-vis their PCs? That last one is what I'm calling "situation first". I don't see situation first as [I]coercive[/I]. It doesn't involve any more authority over the fiction than backstory first, as best I can tell. It does locate the exercise of that authority [I]during play [/I]- the GM [I]framing a scene [/I]is the counterpart to the player [I]declaring an action[/I], which also happens in the course of play. I think where assumptions about map-and-key methods are strong, then that shifting of authorship from [I]before [/I]to [I]during[/I] - which also has the result that the GM's role [I]during play[/I] is more than just neutrally refereeing and naturalistically extrapolating - might be surprising. This claim isn't true. Here is the opening scene of Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth: [indent][B]START[/B] For the Dungeon Master: Read the [B]BACKGROUND [/B]and [B]Players’ Start[/B] to your players. Allow them to copy down the verse clue to the location of the cavern, if they ask. Explain to them that they are now on a narrow pathway that wends ever deep into the mountains. The sun is just emerging over the peaks to the east; it is time for them to set forth. . . . [B]For the Players:[/B] Your party has been gathered by agents of the Margrave of the March of Bissel. He tells you that there are “political considerations,” which he does not explain, that prevent him from searching for Iggwilv’s trove himself. However, it is vital that the treasure not fall into the hands of his enemies. Your party’s goal is to get the treasure before Bissel’s enemies do. [What follows is a discussion of the support provided by the Margrave to the PCs, and their obligations to him in respect of repayment.] An examination of your map reveals that the track through the mountains has numerous branches. At the end of each track is a number, evidently standing for something unknown. The agents of the Margrave cannot tell you anything about their significance, except that it is likely that at one of the sites are the caverns you seek. Obviously, the map is incomplete, for from what you know of this part of the world, there are mountains where nothing but blank space is shown on the chart. With this map you must somehow find where the treasure is hidden. The more direct your route to the caverns, the less the likelihood of injury or death from the many perils of the journey. A scrap of parchment with a bit of doggerel on it might be a clue, or it might be of no use whatsoever, save to mislead you. [What follows is the verse.] After a journey of a sen’night your band has reached the foothills of the Yatils without incident. Before you is the winding path leading into the grim mountains.[/indent] This is not a compelling scene. It's a location on a map. Here's the opening of the CoC module [I]The Vanishing Conjurer[/I]: [indent]It is a pleasant weekday in the latter half of the month of June, 192-. In London, one of the investigators is contacted by an old friend, Howard Horne, who is a theatrical agent working in London's West End. Horne sends the investigator four tickets for a conjuring show taking place that evening at a small theatre of Drury Lane. A small note scribble on Horne's business card attached to the tickets gives no more details about what the investigators might expected, but Horne appears to require their help in a matter of some urgency. . . . The show starts at 7.30, and lasts for around two hours. There are maybe two hundred people in the audience, half-filling the theatre. . . . It is a rather tireseome affair, as none of the participants are especially entertaining or outstanding practitioners of their art. Come the second interval, it is likely that some of the investigators will be wondering whether to bother staying any longer, but it is at that moment that Horne joins them. . . . Horne makes no mention of the problems he referred to in his note. . . . The third part of the show drags its weary way towards the finale . . . Once the show is over, Horne invites the party to join him for a meal and a drink . . . His brisk, bustling manner doesn't allow anyone space to refuse his invitation. [There is then around 600 words of narration of what Horne says to the PCs] Horne can attempt to answer any questions the investigators have . . . When there are no more questions, Howard Horne gets up to leave, though before he deals out his card to everyone and asks them to get in touch as soon as they have any news, or they need any more information.[/indent] That's not a compelling scene. It's just the GM providing the players with a whole lot of backstory and a mission for their PCs. "Backstory first" doesn't mean the GM reveals initial backstory. It is about what has the priority as far as the fiction is concerned. In the living sandbox, the GM frames scenes by referring to the backstory they have prepared. And I've repeatedly noted that any situation needs backstory. The issue is what has priority - pre-authored backstory, or the situation. If you read my accounts of BW play (eg post 1229 not too far upthread), I think you'll see the difference in the relationship between backstory and situation. What does [I]players do stuff [/I]mean? I assume you don't mean they eat chips. Do you mean they roll dice? Do you mean they declare actions? How do those declared actions affect the process of "updating" the setting? This is part of the DL modules, but I assume you don't count those as a living sandbox. And when you say [I]the updated backstory/setting elements get used as the starting point of the next loop[/I] you seem to be agreeing with me that it is backstory first! The fact that the backstory is constantly changing doesn't meant that it's not coming first. Your own statement shows the priority of the backstory, authored by the GM, as the input into situation/framing. [/QUOTE]
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