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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8439815" data-attributes="member: 16814">This is mistaken.&nbsp; You're noting that if your intent is to separate two things with an arbitrary categorization you will end up with a division of two things.&nbsp; The analysis being presented in this thread shows, along the rubric of backstory, two large distinctions (three actually).&nbsp; You then think that since there are such distinctions, and that you can get there via arbitrary definition, that this must be what's happened.&nbsp; You're neglecting the clear evidence that the analysis is actually of play.Everyone putting this forward plays multiple different games and many have extensive experience with D&amp;D.&nbsp; This isn't people that play these games and not those games saying how they must work -- that's actually coming from one segment of commenters here and not the ones advocating for this analysis but those arguing against it.&nbsp; Instead, we're all more than willing to put out play in front of you, talk about exactly what's happening where, and exactly how we approach different games from the different approaches.&nbsp; When I learned to play D&amp;D, I didn't know anything else, so how I learned to play is utterly untouched by any future theory or thinking.&nbsp; Yet, I can 100% identify how I played (and in some ways still play) D&amp;D today with others that don't have any experience with other games.&nbsp; It is not that I am defining (or [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER], or [USER=6785785]@hawkeyefan[/USER], or [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER], or [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER], or others) play just to arbitrarily separate games.&nbsp; This is entirely about experience and application.&nbsp; And I do both sides.In other words, this isn't a categorization to say this goes in bin a and this in bin b.&nbsp; There are games that are hard to categorize.&nbsp; It is, instead, actual analysis of how the games work.&nbsp; And it's not just me, or the people I listed, there are entire communities that discuss and play and design these games and what we're saying here what is being used in all of that.You do not have to like these other games.&nbsp; You don't even have to try them.&nbsp; But, for God's sake, please stop intimating that they just don't work that way or that people discussing them are doing so in bad faith just label games as Good and Bad.&nbsp; You can't find a single person doing that.&nbsp; The only thing you will find are people that say they, personally, prefer some to others.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8439815, member: 16814"] This is mistaken. You're noting that if your intent is to separate two things with an arbitrary categorization you will end up with a division of two things. The analysis being presented in this thread shows, along the rubric of backstory, two large distinctions (three actually). You then think that since there are such distinctions, and that you can get there via arbitrary definition, that this must be what's happened. You're neglecting the clear evidence that the analysis is actually of play. Everyone putting this forward plays multiple different games and many have extensive experience with D&D. This isn't people that play these games and not those games saying how they must work -- that's actually coming from one segment of commenters here and not the ones advocating for this analysis but those arguing against it. Instead, we're all more than willing to put out play in front of you, talk about exactly what's happening where, and exactly how we approach different games from the different approaches. When I learned to play D&D, I didn't know anything else, so how I learned to play is utterly untouched by any future theory or thinking. Yet, I can 100% identify how I played (and in some ways still play) D&D today with others that don't have any experience with other games. It is not that I am defining (or [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER], or [USER=6785785]@hawkeyefan[/USER], or [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER], or [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER], or others) play just to arbitrarily separate games. This is entirely about experience and application. And I do both sides. In other words, this isn't a categorization to say this goes in bin a and this in bin b. There are games that are hard to categorize. It is, instead, actual analysis of how the games work. And it's not just me, or the people I listed, there are entire communities that discuss and play and design these games and what we're saying here what is being used in all of that. You do not have to like these other games. You don't even have to try them. But, for God's sake, please stop intimating that they just don't work that way or that people discussing them are doing so in bad faith just label games as Good and Bad. You can't find a single person doing that. The only thing you will find are people that say they, personally, prefer some to others. [/QUOTE]

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