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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8440002" data-attributes="member: 42582">I've spent about 20 pages of posts setting out in painstaking detail accounts of various approaches to play, using a small amount of jargon to describe different elements of the fiction. I've described processes of play in painstaking detail. In my first post in this thread I set out the following terminology:So I think I've made it pretty clear that backstory/setting is just that. Everyone knows that in any RPG that uses backstory or setting at all (maybe there are some that don't, eg Toon?) some of that setting is written before play starts, and some is written as play unfolds, between sessions, etc - Gygax suggests doing it this way in his DMG, and it is the explicit process set out in the AW rulebook, and I've given examples of situation => backstory which obviously means that backstory is being established during the course of play.You've not contributed any analytical terminology. Your description of the process of play is players do stuff: you don't distinguish categories of action resolution which I'm pretty confident in your "living sandbox" play are resolved differently (eg I attack the Orc which I would guess is resolved via a player-side dice roll, vs I look under the sofa which I would guess is resolved by the GM consulting notes, or perhaps a random stuff-under-the-sofa table, and then telling the player what the PC finds). In fact, you haven't really talked about who has authority over the consequences of declared actions at all, nor what principles might govern the exercise of that authority.I think I'm working pretty hard to keep up my end of the conversation.But in the playloop that you yourself stated, that new backstory feeds back into situation and resolution as an input. At that point, it is pre-authored: it is authored prior to the framing and resolution of the situation. It is drawn upon both to establish what scenes are framed; and to resolve at least some of the action declarations that are made by the players of the PCs in these scenes.The same thing doesn't happen in "situation first". You said that the setting/backstory is 'The constantly changing backstory/setting (and not just in response to player actions)"; and you also said that it is not all revealed to players. Neither of those things is shocking or surprising - they're standard techniques in GM-authored backstory-first RPGing. But they are not techniques that are used in "story now" or "situation first" RPGing.[USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] made the same point not very far upthread:You posrepped this, and described it (post 1189) as "an excellent starting point". And it directly contradicts you assertion that "The same thing happens in story now."OK. I'll wait for your account of the difference between play that is driven by situation, and play that is driven by setting/backstory.I posted an example from an AD&D module authored by Gary Gygax. And an example from the only CoC module I have on my shelf, which I'm fairly confident is pretty representative. I don't think either AD&D or CoC is an obscure RPG.Here's The Sunless Citadel, a WotC 3E module, starts like this:Adventure Background The PCs are not initially privy to the background information, but they may learn it during the adventure. [This is followed by two-to-three hundred words of backstory. Although players aren't mentioned, I think the intention is that the GM will keep this secret from them at the start of the adventure.] Character Hooks Player characters can find the Sunless Citadel within a remote and lonely ravine . . . The PCs can be drawn to the dungeon via the following methods [in summary: an eagerness to go on an adventure; being hired to go on the adventure; solving the mystery of the healing fruit]. Rumours Heard in Oakhurst Player characters can discover the following additional pieces of information either through a Gather information check . . . or via roleplaying: [a list of rumours follows]. . . . The Citadel and Environs Once the player characters are ready to leave Oakhurst, the adventure truly begins. The overgrown Old Road winds through rocky downs, near strands of old growth oaks, and past 1d4 abandoned farm shacks. . . .  Should the PCs travel or camp by night . . . they stand a 60% chance per night of falling under attack by a pair of twig blights!That is not a compelling scene. I'm not going to type it out, but the start of the WotC 3E module Heart of Nightfang Spire is basically the same as the above - which is, in turn, not very different from S4 Lost Caverns of Tjoscanth. This is a completely standard way of starting a D&D module.</blockquote>

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