Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8440082" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Maybe, if you look at it from the "afterwards" perspective.</p><p></p><p>But from the point of view of "beforehand" - ie when the GM has to narrate something - the difference is in respect of the sort of reasons/considerations the GM is having regard to.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think so.</p><p></p><p>In Edwards's <a href="http://adept-press.com/wordpress/wp-content/media/setting_dissection.pdf" target="_blank">essay about setting</a>, he contrasts <em>GM constructs a story • GM learns setting in some detail</em> with <em>Introductory Color • Environment & look-and-feel</em>. Don't get too hung up on "constructs a story" - that's not relevant in this post - but rather the idea of a setting with detail supporting a construction, with "colour" and "look-and-feel". I use Greyhawk for colour: we need a town name (Hardby), we need some geography (when we started our first campaign, the player of the wizard PC had downloaded a picture of an Indian castle and said <em>this is the tower referenced in Jobe's background</em> and I said <em>I think that's in the Abor-Alz</em> and he agreed.</p><p></p><p>The difference is that colour doesn't determine action resolution outcomes. It's just flavour, "look and feel", filling out the sense of the world. In BW, all our movement is resolved either via free narration (not map-and-key resolution) or via appropriate checks (eg Orienteering checks to navigate safely through the Bright Desert).</p><p></p><p>Likewise in Marvel Heroic RP - when I narrate the fight between War Machine and Titanium Man which started out over Washington DC as having ended up with War Machine falling to land in Florida, while Titanium Man returns to his secret base in Khazakstan, this is not an input into resolution. No one is comparing mph of their rockets with a map of North America or Central Asia. It's flavour.</p><p></p><p>Of course colour can be transmuted into something carrying more weight. In a subsequent session, when War Machine wanted to disable a supervillain, he declared that he was grabbing her and hanging her by her costume at the top of the Washington Monument. The check succeeded, and he disabled her with a Dangling From the Top of the Washington Monument complication.</p><p></p><p>If you're playing Tomb of Horrors, the contrast between backstory and colour/"look and feel" probably doesn't come up much. (It can, though - say someone asks more about the details of the tapestries in the shaking room, the GM has to just make something up, and it won't matter to the play of the module. This goes back to my example, upthread I think, of the GM establishing impromptu the Orcish graffiti underneath the table - a good ToH GM knows how to narrate colour so as to sustain the players' sense of the fiction without misleading or confusing them as to what matters and what doesn't.)</p><p></p><p>But if you're used to GMing ToH or similar and want to think about how you'd GM Apocalypse World, then thinking about the contrast between backstory and colour becomes a bit more important I think. For instance, if you've narrated the shed being on fire, and the player declares that their PC rushes into it to try and grab the water canisters that are still inside, that's Acting Under Fire, and the check has to be made. From pp 190-91:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>When you <strong>do something under fire</strong>, or dig in to endure fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, you do it. On a 7–9, you flinch, hesitate, or stall: the MC can offer you a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice.</em></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">You can read “under fire” to mean any kind of serious pressure at all. Call for this move whenever someone does something requiring unusual discipline, resolve, endurance or care. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">On a 7–9, when it comes to the worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice, you’ll need to look at the circumstances and find something fun. It should be easy to find something; if there weren’t things to go wrong, nobody’d be rolling dice. It can include suffering harm or making another move. However, remember that a 7–9 is a hit, not a miss; whatever you offer should be fundamentally a success, not fundamentally a failure.</p><p></p><p>If the player whose PC rushes into the burning shed rolls a 7-9 then obviously taking harm is one legitimate option (eg a hard bargain: <em>It's HOT in there - if you really want to go through with it, you'll take 3-harm (ap)</em>) but so would be something else if it seems to make sense (eg an ugly choice: <em>As you rush towards the shed, you see the fire is spreading to your workspace garage - you can grab the water, or try and stop the spread, but not both</em>; or a worse outcome: <em>You grab the canisters, but the plastic has started to melt - that water is going to be a bit tainted if you drink it</em>).</p><p></p><p>That's an example of the contrast between "backstory first" and "situation first". In the AW adjudication, the colour of the situation - that includes the fire - is being used to help establish consequences in accordance with the resolution processes, but it is not backstory that settles the resolution outcome (that the water is tainted, or that the fire inevitably spread, or that the PC inevitably suffers burns).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8440082, member: 42582"] Maybe, if you look at it from the "afterwards" perspective. But from the point of view of "beforehand" - ie when the GM has to narrate something - the difference is in respect of the sort of reasons/considerations the GM is having regard to. I don't think so. In Edwards's [URL='http://adept-press.com/wordpress/wp-content/media/setting_dissection.pdf']essay about setting[/URL], he contrasts [I]GM constructs a story • GM learns setting in some detail[/I] with [I]Introductory Color • Environment & look-and-feel[/I]. Don't get too hung up on "constructs a story" - that's not relevant in this post - but rather the idea of a setting with detail supporting a construction, with "colour" and "look-and-feel". I use Greyhawk for colour: we need a town name (Hardby), we need some geography (when we started our first campaign, the player of the wizard PC had downloaded a picture of an Indian castle and said [I]this is the tower referenced in Jobe's background[/I] and I said [I]I think that's in the Abor-Alz[/I] and he agreed. The difference is that colour doesn't determine action resolution outcomes. It's just flavour, "look and feel", filling out the sense of the world. In BW, all our movement is resolved either via free narration (not map-and-key resolution) or via appropriate checks (eg Orienteering checks to navigate safely through the Bright Desert). Likewise in Marvel Heroic RP - when I narrate the fight between War Machine and Titanium Man which started out over Washington DC as having ended up with War Machine falling to land in Florida, while Titanium Man returns to his secret base in Khazakstan, this is not an input into resolution. No one is comparing mph of their rockets with a map of North America or Central Asia. It's flavour. Of course colour can be transmuted into something carrying more weight. In a subsequent session, when War Machine wanted to disable a supervillain, he declared that he was grabbing her and hanging her by her costume at the top of the Washington Monument. The check succeeded, and he disabled her with a Dangling From the Top of the Washington Monument complication. If you're playing Tomb of Horrors, the contrast between backstory and colour/"look and feel" probably doesn't come up much. (It can, though - say someone asks more about the details of the tapestries in the shaking room, the GM has to just make something up, and it won't matter to the play of the module. This goes back to my example, upthread I think, of the GM establishing impromptu the Orcish graffiti underneath the table - a good ToH GM knows how to narrate colour so as to sustain the players' sense of the fiction without misleading or confusing them as to what matters and what doesn't.) But if you're used to GMing ToH or similar and want to think about how you'd GM Apocalypse World, then thinking about the contrast between backstory and colour becomes a bit more important I think. For instance, if you've narrated the shed being on fire, and the player declares that their PC rushes into it to try and grab the water canisters that are still inside, that's Acting Under Fire, and the check has to be made. From pp 190-91: [INDENT][I]When you [B]do something under fire[/B], or dig in to endure fire, roll+cool. On a 10+, you do it. On a 7–9, you flinch, hesitate, or stall: the MC can offer you a worse outcome, a hard bargain, or an ugly choice.[/I][/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]You can read “under fire” to mean any kind of serious pressure at all. Call for this move whenever someone does something requiring unusual discipline, resolve, endurance or care. . . .[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]On a 7–9, when it comes to the worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice, you’ll need to look at the circumstances and find something fun. It should be easy to find something; if there weren’t things to go wrong, nobody’d be rolling dice. It can include suffering harm or making another move. However, remember that a 7–9 is a hit, not a miss; whatever you offer should be fundamentally a success, not fundamentally a failure.[/INDENT] If the player whose PC rushes into the burning shed rolls a 7-9 then obviously taking harm is one legitimate option (eg a hard bargain: [I]It's HOT in there - if you really want to go through with it, you'll take 3-harm (ap)[/I]) but so would be something else if it seems to make sense (eg an ugly choice: [I]As you rush towards the shed, you see the fire is spreading to your workspace garage - you can grab the water, or try and stop the spread, but not both[/I]; or a worse outcome: [I]You grab the canisters, but the plastic has started to melt - that water is going to be a bit tainted if you drink it[/I]). That's an example of the contrast between "backstory first" and "situation first". In the AW adjudication, the colour of the situation - that includes the fire - is being used to help establish consequences in accordance with the resolution processes, but it is not backstory that settles the resolution outcome (that the water is tainted, or that the fire inevitably spread, or that the PC inevitably suffers burns). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
Top