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Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8444896" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I have a slightly different take -- neither of your examples are about overriding rules. Making a ruling you can't shoot arrows into water to successfully hit an underwater target isn't an override of rules. To me, the difference here is that in the first example, the GM had an outcome in mind -- the hag escapes -- and had described the hag as swimming away underwater. Then there was a negotiation between you and the GM as to why your declared action to shoot the hag failed. This went through a few iterations, with the GM putting their best reason according to the situation to show why it failed. First was distance, but you had an answer to that. Second was inability to see, which you had an answer to. Third was the fact that even if the first two failed, you still can't shoot a target underwater, and that's where it ended. This outcome was always there, it just took the GM walking through what they thought were simpler answers to get there. As far as I can see, the GM was not retconning the situation to achieve their goal.</p><p></p><p>So, on second take, this first example of the escaping hag wasn't Force (although it might have gone there), but rather just poor communication and the GM having enough fictional reasons to deny the action but needing to find the one the player didn't have resources to marshal against. We do not know if the GM would have allowed the shot if the player had a resource that said they can shoot into water with no penalties, so benefit of the doubt is needed.</p><p></p><p>The second example, though, seems like the GM wanted to ambush the party with redcaps, felt that the familiar would have spoiled that, and so did some quick thinking to line up some bits of fiction to make it happen. This is Force, though, because the GM is ignoring the intent of the player's actions and then deciding what the outcome was without regard to system (ie, no tests made). This actually feels quantum ogre to me.</p><p></p><p>To sum up, the first seems clumsy, but on second look I don't see Force clearly (it could be lurking). The second is still clearly Force, but well integrated into the fiction. To me, though, it opens up quite a number of questions that seem like it could abuse the familiar in the future. To me, there's some intent in the familiar rules that doesn't suggest the familiar is a key to a pocket dimension that allows for sneak attacks and time-delayed teleportation effects. I mean, I could, using this, get a squad of friendly attack fey, have them go with the familiar to the pocket dimension, and then summon them in for surprise and mayhem later.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8444896, member: 16814"] I have a slightly different take -- neither of your examples are about overriding rules. Making a ruling you can't shoot arrows into water to successfully hit an underwater target isn't an override of rules. To me, the difference here is that in the first example, the GM had an outcome in mind -- the hag escapes -- and had described the hag as swimming away underwater. Then there was a negotiation between you and the GM as to why your declared action to shoot the hag failed. This went through a few iterations, with the GM putting their best reason according to the situation to show why it failed. First was distance, but you had an answer to that. Second was inability to see, which you had an answer to. Third was the fact that even if the first two failed, you still can't shoot a target underwater, and that's where it ended. This outcome was always there, it just took the GM walking through what they thought were simpler answers to get there. As far as I can see, the GM was not retconning the situation to achieve their goal. So, on second take, this first example of the escaping hag wasn't Force (although it might have gone there), but rather just poor communication and the GM having enough fictional reasons to deny the action but needing to find the one the player didn't have resources to marshal against. We do not know if the GM would have allowed the shot if the player had a resource that said they can shoot into water with no penalties, so benefit of the doubt is needed. The second example, though, seems like the GM wanted to ambush the party with redcaps, felt that the familiar would have spoiled that, and so did some quick thinking to line up some bits of fiction to make it happen. This is Force, though, because the GM is ignoring the intent of the player's actions and then deciding what the outcome was without regard to system (ie, no tests made). This actually feels quantum ogre to me. To sum up, the first seems clumsy, but on second look I don't see Force clearly (it could be lurking). The second is still clearly Force, but well integrated into the fiction. To me, though, it opens up quite a number of questions that seem like it could abuse the familiar in the future. To me, there's some intent in the familiar rules that doesn't suggest the familiar is a key to a pocket dimension that allows for sneak attacks and time-delayed teleportation effects. I mean, I could, using this, get a squad of friendly attack fey, have them go with the familiar to the pocket dimension, and then summon them in for surprise and mayhem later. [/QUOTE]
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