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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7167644" data-attributes="member: 6778044">See, this is really where you're running into problems. You say that people aren't willing to accept your way of playing. I don't think that's the case at all from what I've seen here. Yes, there's been a lot of "I certainly wouldn't want to play like that" and as I noted before, you're pushing the boundaries of what many people would consider D&D.Does Monopoly or Life have a referee? The reality is that they do - the rules, and the other players. But you're referring to a person whose job is specifically that. And the obvious answer is no. Does it need it? Of course not. But the fact that more people play games without referees doesn't prove your point at all. The fact that more people play Monopoly than D&D doesn't tell you why that's true. Your assertion that more people play games like that is because they don't have referees is the same as saying that more people play Monopoly because it doesn't have flumphs. So let's look at it another way. Why don't we add a DM to Monopoly and play it like D&D. Is it still Monopoly? I certainly don't think so. It's not a question of liking the DM to do so. It's a defining feature of an RPG. And D&D not only is and RPG, it created and defined the genre.So you like board games better. But D&D gives you more flexibility to create a really cool board game. Great for you. That's probably not a problem for almost anybody.I'm kind of lost at this stage at what you're trying to accomplish. You can claim that most gamers, and really we're talking about RPG gamers, prefer to not have a DM in charge. Guess what, there's a few subgenres for that. The one that comes to mind is the Story Telling games that became somewhat popular in the '90s. Most gamers didn't like them. The millions of gamers playing with the PHB and an AP? Playing with a DM. The way the books tell them to. Making decisions, improvising, and such.One of the defining features of D&D from the beginning is that it's not a competitive game, and you aren't trying to "win." Another is that nearly anything is possible, and part of what makes that happen is a live DM that can make decisions on the fly. That maybe I'm suspicious of the dude in Barovia and decide it's not a good idea to go to Valaki. I don't want to be forced to wander the whole castle that you put together. I'm a "get in and get out" kind of guy, rather than a "clear the level" sort. Whatever. I don't want the DM taking away my free will under most circumstances.Under the banner of "board game" then a railroad like that is no problem whatsoever. Under the banner of D&D/RPG, as a player my one and only part in the game is to play my character. And anything that specifically limits my ability to play that character better have a good reason. "Because the DM designed a cool castle and wants you to see all of it" isn't. That's OK, though. You have different priorities. I do too. I tweak the rules a lot. Not to fundamentally change the game like you do, but to make it work better for my campaign and lore. And I have no illusions that the majority of players would ever play the game the way I do. I'm happy to share, but that's all I can do, just share. I think it's a great way to play, and my players not only love it, but when they go out to other groups they either perpetuate it, or at least try to incorporate our play style there. And the reality is, the play style is nothing new, nothing groundbreaking. It's pretty much modeled after what little I understand about how Ed Greenwood runs his games. But I'm just a guy running a game for those that want to join in. I can't even claim that most gamers in my town would want to play this way, much less MOST gamers everywhere.And you redesigned D&D as an amazingly cool board game, and I'm sure the players loved it. To some degree you're a board/video game designer that likes to see how well your design works when you plug people through it. The reality is, I think that your desire to not allow the DM to make changes during the game probably has a lot to do with your game design. If you build elaborate 3D sets, then it's way more time and effort than even the most diligent DM. For the DM to allow the players to skip past that becomes a problem. It extends beyond just the 3D sets. You have a carefully orchestrated adventure from start to finish. You've narrowed the adventure down to the parts that you think are important, and tweaked everything to run smoothly for the whole adventure, all to fit in an allotted time for gameplay. I think going outside of that ruins the adventure for you. Most DMs don't have the time (nor the skills) to do all that. I think it's awesome that you do. And I think it provides a unique and different approach to gaming, when presented like that, most everybody here would love to try at some point.There is no need for you to start claiming that most gamers do that, or want to do that, because clearly they can't, and don't. That doesn't diminish the value of what you do one little bit. You are way on the fringe of how D&D is played, in part because you're doing something that can't easily be replicated.On the other hand, I can tell you that as cool as it sounds, it's not the way I would want to play all of the time. To start with, you've put so many limitations on the game and the world that once I get past the cool 3D stuff, I'd feel like I was playing a computer game. And guess what? I would be, with a human computer. It's far too limiting, and it gives the designer/DM way too much control over the direction of the game. You don't need the DM to make decisions during the game because you've made them all before the game. As much as I'd love to really get into video game RPGs, I just can't. Your approach has the benefit of human contact and interaction. It's a very cool thing. But it's quite different from how most people play D&D, and even from how it was designed.You're right. Most gamers don't play with a DM. Because most "gamers" play video games. And really, that's the experience you're recreating in 3D, an elaborate video game. For most gamers, it's easy to grasp, and doesn't require a lot of new skills or gaming perspectives. But it's far from what most tabletop RPG gamers do. So no matter how you put it, D&D players, or RPG players aren't going to agree with that assertion. Don't demean or minimize what you do by trying to claim superiority over the way most D&D players play. You're not really playing D&D, at least not as designed. Any more than if I started a game of Monopoly with a DM. But that's not a bad thing, and it's not a diss. Anymore than saying Dungeon World is not D&D, even though it evolved out of a particular way of playing OD&D. The only difference is that instead of writing a new ruleset, you're taking and modifying what you want for your game. You do bring a lot to the table that other D&D player will grab onto and celebrate. This part of it isn't one of those. You're not going to convince most D&D players/DMs that you have improved D&D by removing much of the DM from it.</blockquote>

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