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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7176533" data-attributes="member: 996">Especially if you consider 2e in the early 90s, before CCGs took off, rather than towards the end of it's run when it was bloated and TSR was collapsing around it. I still have to take issue with your use of 'rpgers' to refer to returning D&D players (who, yes, have probably made 5e a success relative to other post-fad editions of the game - though, still, no hard nor complete numbers to back that up), and 'gamists' to refer to vast pool of gamers & potential gamers who have either never played (TT) D&D or tried it and walked away.   For one thing, approaching an RPG from a so-called gamist perspective /is/ still playing an RPG, you're as much a roleplayer as anyone else sitting at a D&D table.  For another, no matter how much you may emphasize less GNS-'gamist' aspects of an RPG, you can't get away from the fact that it's a Game.   Exactly.  D&D relative to anything not restricted to the RPG market is tiny.  Big fish, small pond.  Shouldn't be news to anyone. And that's just re-hashing the edition war.  5e is for fans of all past editions, including those who liked 4e.  Which was as much 'narrativist' as 'gamist' in the ways it departed from D&D tradition, in it's vain attempt to win 'Core Brand' status with $50-100 million revenue for Hasbro. The d20 boom was really more of a consolidation than a boom.  d20, and D&D in triumphant return as it's flagship, did very well, at the price of most other games then popular, most notably Storyteller. Apparently it was a big leap, because they didn't just re-issue 2e or anything.  They came up with a game with options that incorporated both the classic game and the d20 versions, and even left the door open to adequate support for 4e styles, though we've seen vanishingly little movement in that direction.  One positive of the brief WotC (pre-Hasbro) tenure was the SRD/OGL, which means D&D can never really die - at least, not 3e D&D, or now some of 5e, since it has a limited SRD out.  People well always be able to clone them.  It's not just 5e, specifically, though, that is positioned to fade into history, it's the TTRPG hobby, in general.  The main cause for hope is the crossover with the current boardgame boom drawing in new players who come to an FLGS for a board game, see D&D being played, and give it a try.  Because, let's face it, there are still few other creadible entry points to the hobby, and D&D, while it has name recognition, is not the most welcoming, readily grasped, or easy to love game for new players. That's vital to keeping something going with a 'cult' status, but growth depends on more open & active play, in the public eye.  Fortunately, there's a lot of that, we've had FLGS play programs since 2010, and RPG play as a spectator sport also from around that time, if not a bit earlier.  Then there's social media, meetup, and the like.  The hobby is out there, with D&D 5e is it's primary face. There is some 'new old blood' - I get people with join dates in the last few years telling me how they've been playing since the 70s or 80s.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Freakishly, this adds a further impetus to rest early, while you're still fresh enough to handle the extra encounters you must fight for your rest.I don't see that as a plus.</blockquote>

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