Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7186462" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>For the campaign, which includes the world, among other creative considerations. So, for an obvious instance, if the world doesn't have elves, you wouldn't have an encounter with elves. If an area is established as overrun with griffons and bulletes, it's very unlikely you'd have an encounter with horse-riding nomads (because both those monsters love horseflesh). </p><p></p><p>That's obvious, but softer considerations, like the theme of the campaign or the feel of an area of it or the 'needs of the story' or whatnot can also factor into how difficult and how many encounters you might want to throw down in a given period of time - be it a day or months or an hour (there's plenty of time for multiple encounters in a single hour, in a practical sense).</p><p></p><p> There's restriction that 'balance' (which is strictly optional) in 5e requires, yes. 'Balanced' can still mean 'this is it, we're all going to die,' in the face of a string of deadly encounters, but you'll all die without one of you showing the others up, FWIW. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>Yes. Any game that doesn't use attrition across encounters as a source of challenge would be indifferent to the number and timing of encounters. And, any system that doesn't differentiate classes (well, groups of classes) by giving them different supply, timing & power of limited-use resources, would be indifferent to the ratio of encounters to resource-recovery opportunities in terms of class balance (not in terms of encounter difficulty, though) - including classless systems, which, outside of D&D and it's immitators, are probably the norm for RPGs, not that anything as niche and unpopular as TTRPGs has a 'norm.' </p><p></p><p>So, really, yes, quite a few, just none of them D&D (not even 4e, the 'not D&D D&D,' though it came closest)... well, "D&D" Gamma World was that way, but the 'D&D' part was un-called-for, IMHO. </p><p></p><p>For one instance (a not at all balanced game in many other ways) I ran Mage: the Ascension for quite a while. If you had a Monk and a Wizard in D&D, their different resource-recovery mixes would make tuning the encounter/short-rest/day ratios to keep them 'balanced' advisable. If you had an Akashic Brother and an Hermetic (basically the same concepts/archetypes), in M:tA, there'd be plenty of other things imbalancing them relative to eachother, but how many different times they threw down with agents of the Technocracy that day wouldn't be one of them.</p><p></p><p> Yep, I believe I said something like that - of course 'utilizing the tools correctly' can include tossing or altering them, 'cause they're just a starting point. </p><p></p><p></p><p> Really, they don't work in any world. Not until a DM steps up and takes events in hand to make them work.</p><p></p><p></p><p> One of the perks of 5e is that it is close enough to the classic game that we can apply our hard-won DMing skills of decades past to it. 5e's Elephant is much like the Mastodons of those days, none of this is really a mystery. </p><p></p><p>Just for one instance of a factor that confounds the 'solution' of 3-4 double-strength encounters: </p><p> When you dial up difficulty in D&D, as you'd have to do to cram an encounter budget and challenge of a whole day into 3 encounters, the PCs are in more and more obvious & immediate danger, and they respond by blowing their most potent resources - their biggest slots, powering their best spell for the circumstance, for instance. That's when the classes with those resources get their spotlight time. In the 6-8 medium-hard guideline, they'll more likely shine in the hard encounters, while others will shine in the medium ones - and that's an issue of it's own, too, but no need to go there right now. In the 3-deadly alternative, the volume is turned all the way up, all the time. Similarly, much as I like the idea of multiplying short-rest abilities to bring them into line with long-rest abilities in a single-encounter day, the daily abilities are still typically more potent, individually (and in the case of spell, more versatile, as well, though, again, another topic...).</p><p></p><p> It means what I meant it to mean in the context as I meant to use it. ;P </p><p></p><p>Seriously, though, yeah, I can be harsh with systems. We could spin it as the system 'presents you with an opportunity to exercise DM Empowerment to better your campaign's play experience' rather than 'fails' just because </p><p></p><p> You could be missing out on running a better game if you were not constrained by those guidelines...</p><p></p><p>:shrug:</p><p></p><p>The qualities of a system don't change just because opinions about them or experiences of them are necessarily subjective.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7186462, member: 996"] For the campaign, which includes the world, among other creative considerations. So, for an obvious instance, if the world doesn't have elves, you wouldn't have an encounter with elves. If an area is established as overrun with griffons and bulletes, it's very unlikely you'd have an encounter with horse-riding nomads (because both those monsters love horseflesh). That's obvious, but softer considerations, like the theme of the campaign or the feel of an area of it or the 'needs of the story' or whatnot can also factor into how difficult and how many encounters you might want to throw down in a given period of time - be it a day or months or an hour (there's plenty of time for multiple encounters in a single hour, in a practical sense). There's restriction that 'balance' (which is strictly optional) in 5e requires, yes. 'Balanced' can still mean 'this is it, we're all going to die,' in the face of a string of deadly encounters, but you'll all die without one of you showing the others up, FWIW. ;) Yes. Any game that doesn't use attrition across encounters as a source of challenge would be indifferent to the number and timing of encounters. And, any system that doesn't differentiate classes (well, groups of classes) by giving them different supply, timing & power of limited-use resources, would be indifferent to the ratio of encounters to resource-recovery opportunities in terms of class balance (not in terms of encounter difficulty, though) - including classless systems, which, outside of D&D and it's immitators, are probably the norm for RPGs, not that anything as niche and unpopular as TTRPGs has a 'norm.' So, really, yes, quite a few, just none of them D&D (not even 4e, the 'not D&D D&D,' though it came closest)... well, "D&D" Gamma World was that way, but the 'D&D' part was un-called-for, IMHO. For one instance (a not at all balanced game in many other ways) I ran Mage: the Ascension for quite a while. If you had a Monk and a Wizard in D&D, their different resource-recovery mixes would make tuning the encounter/short-rest/day ratios to keep them 'balanced' advisable. If you had an Akashic Brother and an Hermetic (basically the same concepts/archetypes), in M:tA, there'd be plenty of other things imbalancing them relative to eachother, but how many different times they threw down with agents of the Technocracy that day wouldn't be one of them. Yep, I believe I said something like that - of course 'utilizing the tools correctly' can include tossing or altering them, 'cause they're just a starting point. Really, they don't work in any world. Not until a DM steps up and takes events in hand to make them work. One of the perks of 5e is that it is close enough to the classic game that we can apply our hard-won DMing skills of decades past to it. 5e's Elephant is much like the Mastodons of those days, none of this is really a mystery. Just for one instance of a factor that confounds the 'solution' of 3-4 double-strength encounters: When you dial up difficulty in D&D, as you'd have to do to cram an encounter budget and challenge of a whole day into 3 encounters, the PCs are in more and more obvious & immediate danger, and they respond by blowing their most potent resources - their biggest slots, powering their best spell for the circumstance, for instance. That's when the classes with those resources get their spotlight time. In the 6-8 medium-hard guideline, they'll more likely shine in the hard encounters, while others will shine in the medium ones - and that's an issue of it's own, too, but no need to go there right now. In the 3-deadly alternative, the volume is turned all the way up, all the time. Similarly, much as I like the idea of multiplying short-rest abilities to bring them into line with long-rest abilities in a single-encounter day, the daily abilities are still typically more potent, individually (and in the case of spell, more versatile, as well, though, again, another topic...). It means what I meant it to mean in the context as I meant to use it. ;P Seriously, though, yeah, I can be harsh with systems. We could spin it as the system 'presents you with an opportunity to exercise DM Empowerment to better your campaign's play experience' rather than 'fails' just because You could be missing out on running a better game if you were not constrained by those guidelines... :shrug: The qualities of a system don't change just because opinions about them or experiences of them are necessarily subjective. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room
Top