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Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.
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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 9017975" data-attributes="member: 23751"><p>First, thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it. Second, sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I've been busy and/or tired due to being busy the last few days and needed to digest the information. You put a lot of effort into this post and I wanted to give it an appropriate response. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I have a few questions about this part of the process. </p><p></p><p>1) Are the 7 dice d4, d6, d8, 2d10(percentile), d12 and d20? </p><p>2) Did you really mean different values from the 7 dice rolled or just 7 different numbers? I'm having a hard time understanding how you can guarantee different values from rolled dice.</p><p>3) I'm assuming mana=magic energy, stamina=physical energy. What is composure for?</p><p></p><p>I like that you can succeed well to get benefits, and I personally enjoy critical failures. Have you completely gotten rid of the idea of failing badly receiving a penalty. Also, I know from experience that players really enjoy adding ability modifiers to rolls. Perhaps a combination of skill and energy based modifiers AND some appropriate stat modifier. </p><p></p><p>I really like the idea of gathering ingredients/resources as you travel, perhaps slowing down by X amount depending on what you are looking for and how seriously you are looking. If the party is willing to slow way down, perhaps they get a positive modifier to look for stuff. If they want to travel quickly and are essentially just keeping an eye out as they go, they'd get a penalty since they aren't really searching, but might get lucky and find something anyway. </p><p></p><p>Mining seems to me would take a loooooooong time to accomplish. Also, would the ore need to be refined before being usable or is that more detailed than you want to be with the system?</p><p></p><p>My thoughts on this are that if you are going to have purchased potions be sufficient as a base, making pretty much every PC potion better than that could provide some serious balance issues. Especially if there's no limiter on the number of potions a player can make and/or drink during the day(or other time unit). Perhaps a low roll could be a substandard potion, average be equal to what you can buy, and good rolls are superior.</p><p></p><p>Of course there would likely be different qualities of potions depending on character level. Someone who is level 8 is probably using moderate potions rather than the light ones 1st level PCs use. So a substandard moderate potion would be better than a good light potion. Skill would likely be going up with level as well, so PCs would be able to make better and better potions as they go up in level. </p><p></p><p>Lastly, as a player if I were to use a crafting system like this, I wouldn't want to have to employ an alchemist at high levels. I'd want to be able to focus my skill(through feats or whatever other mechanism you have) in order to achieve the level of skill to make the best stuff at level 30. Obviously that would come at a cost, since if I'm devoting resources to being the best at alchemy, I'm not using those same resources to be better at my class, but I feel that option should be there.</p><p></p><p>The only real arguing that I've seen on this front are the occasional discussion between players.</p><p></p><p>Player 1: "We need to rest. This room seems like the safest spot we've seen."</p><p>Player 2: "We've been in this area looking around for just an hour and we've run into 4 patrols. It's too dangerous to rest."</p><p>Player 3: "I have to agree. It's too dangerous to rest here. Maybe we should go back to town and lick our wounds there."</p><p>player 4: "We can push on. None of us is too beat up yet and we still have a lot of fight in us. If we rest now or leave, the monster X's that live here will find the bodies we have left and sound the alarm, probably preparing defenses for us if we should come back. It will be harder, if not impossible if we rest now."</p><p></p><p>To me that's roleplaying and a great part of the game. Anything to get players roleplaying about hard choices is a good thing in my book. On the DM side of things it's only random(or sometimes set) encounters that can disrupt rests, so there's no real negotiation or arguing between myself and the players that goes on.</p><p></p><p>As I mentioned in a prior post, 5e is balanced around the adventuring day. 6-8 encounters in-between long rests. It's probably the single thing I dislike most about 5e. By balancing around that many encounters, they have made the game about resource attrition. The initial encounters, even "hard" ones, will be easy. By the time you get to the last few encounters, resources will be low and the party will finally be challenged. Spend too many resources early and the party could lose PCs or have a TPK at the end.</p><p></p><p>Potions as a resource to replace sleep seems like it would unbalance 5e to a great degree unless potion consumption were highly limited to the point where they mimicked the amount of resources you recover the short rests in-between long rests and the one long rest you get per 24 hours. This system could be better for balancing encounters under a different system, though. That system would be designed with this particular crafting system in mind.</p><p></p><p>General thoughts.</p><p></p><p>1) 5e has been very specifically designed to be simple. In fact WotC has in my opinion thrown the baby out with the bath water and over simplified 5e. It really needs to be a bit more complicated than it is. Your crafting system would add quite a bit more complexity to the game, so WotC wouldn't ever make something like this for this particular edition. 6e might be different.</p><p></p><p>2) Resting as a means to recover resources is a major, major sacred cow for D&D. WotC won't be getting rid of it, especially since the amount of arguing it receives pales in comparison to say hit points or alignment, both of which remain and will continue to remain. Pushing for this system to replace resting isn't going to work for D&D. It could supplement it and/or be some sort of optional system that DMs can draw upon from the DM's Toolbox in the DMG.</p><p></p><p>3) I really like the idea of an improved crafting system. As you might have guessed, I like more complexity that 5e currently has. Your ideas wouldn't work for me as a replacement to rest, but as a more robust method of crafting, I could potentially see myself using it in that regard, though not as a replacement to rest. I would need to see the exact mechanics before I would decide that, though.</p><p></p><p>4) This seems like something that you could put out on the DM's Guild(or wherever else) as a 5.5e supplement and it might do very well. I doubt I'm anywhere near the only one who thinks 5e is too simple and wants a better crafting system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 9017975, member: 23751"] First, thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate it. Second, sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I've been busy and/or tired due to being busy the last few days and needed to digest the information. You put a lot of effort into this post and I wanted to give it an appropriate response. :) I have a few questions about this part of the process. 1) Are the 7 dice d4, d6, d8, 2d10(percentile), d12 and d20? 2) Did you really mean different values from the 7 dice rolled or just 7 different numbers? I'm having a hard time understanding how you can guarantee different values from rolled dice. 3) I'm assuming mana=magic energy, stamina=physical energy. What is composure for? I like that you can succeed well to get benefits, and I personally enjoy critical failures. Have you completely gotten rid of the idea of failing badly receiving a penalty. Also, I know from experience that players really enjoy adding ability modifiers to rolls. Perhaps a combination of skill and energy based modifiers AND some appropriate stat modifier. I really like the idea of gathering ingredients/resources as you travel, perhaps slowing down by X amount depending on what you are looking for and how seriously you are looking. If the party is willing to slow way down, perhaps they get a positive modifier to look for stuff. If they want to travel quickly and are essentially just keeping an eye out as they go, they'd get a penalty since they aren't really searching, but might get lucky and find something anyway. Mining seems to me would take a loooooooong time to accomplish. Also, would the ore need to be refined before being usable or is that more detailed than you want to be with the system? My thoughts on this are that if you are going to have purchased potions be sufficient as a base, making pretty much every PC potion better than that could provide some serious balance issues. Especially if there's no limiter on the number of potions a player can make and/or drink during the day(or other time unit). Perhaps a low roll could be a substandard potion, average be equal to what you can buy, and good rolls are superior. Of course there would likely be different qualities of potions depending on character level. Someone who is level 8 is probably using moderate potions rather than the light ones 1st level PCs use. So a substandard moderate potion would be better than a good light potion. Skill would likely be going up with level as well, so PCs would be able to make better and better potions as they go up in level. Lastly, as a player if I were to use a crafting system like this, I wouldn't want to have to employ an alchemist at high levels. I'd want to be able to focus my skill(through feats or whatever other mechanism you have) in order to achieve the level of skill to make the best stuff at level 30. Obviously that would come at a cost, since if I'm devoting resources to being the best at alchemy, I'm not using those same resources to be better at my class, but I feel that option should be there. The only real arguing that I've seen on this front are the occasional discussion between players. Player 1: "We need to rest. This room seems like the safest spot we've seen." Player 2: "We've been in this area looking around for just an hour and we've run into 4 patrols. It's too dangerous to rest." Player 3: "I have to agree. It's too dangerous to rest here. Maybe we should go back to town and lick our wounds there." player 4: "We can push on. None of us is too beat up yet and we still have a lot of fight in us. If we rest now or leave, the monster X's that live here will find the bodies we have left and sound the alarm, probably preparing defenses for us if we should come back. It will be harder, if not impossible if we rest now." To me that's roleplaying and a great part of the game. Anything to get players roleplaying about hard choices is a good thing in my book. On the DM side of things it's only random(or sometimes set) encounters that can disrupt rests, so there's no real negotiation or arguing between myself and the players that goes on. As I mentioned in a prior post, 5e is balanced around the adventuring day. 6-8 encounters in-between long rests. It's probably the single thing I dislike most about 5e. By balancing around that many encounters, they have made the game about resource attrition. The initial encounters, even "hard" ones, will be easy. By the time you get to the last few encounters, resources will be low and the party will finally be challenged. Spend too many resources early and the party could lose PCs or have a TPK at the end. Potions as a resource to replace sleep seems like it would unbalance 5e to a great degree unless potion consumption were highly limited to the point where they mimicked the amount of resources you recover the short rests in-between long rests and the one long rest you get per 24 hours. This system could be better for balancing encounters under a different system, though. That system would be designed with this particular crafting system in mind. General thoughts. 1) 5e has been very specifically designed to be simple. In fact WotC has in my opinion thrown the baby out with the bath water and over simplified 5e. It really needs to be a bit more complicated than it is. Your crafting system would add quite a bit more complexity to the game, so WotC wouldn't ever make something like this for this particular edition. 6e might be different. 2) Resting as a means to recover resources is a major, major sacred cow for D&D. WotC won't be getting rid of it, especially since the amount of arguing it receives pales in comparison to say hit points or alignment, both of which remain and will continue to remain. Pushing for this system to replace resting isn't going to work for D&D. It could supplement it and/or be some sort of optional system that DMs can draw upon from the DM's Toolbox in the DMG. 3) I really like the idea of an improved crafting system. As you might have guessed, I like more complexity that 5e currently has. Your ideas wouldn't work for me as a replacement to rest, but as a more robust method of crafting, I could potentially see myself using it in that regard, though not as a replacement to rest. I would need to see the exact mechanics before I would decide that, though. 4) This seems like something that you could put out on the DM's Guild(or wherever else) as a 5.5e supplement and it might do very well. I doubt I'm anywhere near the only one who thinks 5e is too simple and wants a better crafting system. [/QUOTE]
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Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.
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