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Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9020244" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>You still are not presenting anything about the merits of 5e that allow what you are talking about & that's not too surprising given that there is ample evidence of problems in 5e's design. High level play in 5e is incapable of meeting the bar that lower level play can because the design eliminates any need for PCs to improve their equipment, that's a thing wotc has been very up front about admitting from the start. </p><p>[spoiler="motivation is system & edition agnostic"]</p><p>Planned and Random</p><p>Encounter Treasures</p><p> It is important for the DM to distinguish between placed </p><p>treasures and those found with random encounters. The </p><p>scale of the two is vastly different.</p><p> Monster descriptions in the Monstrous Manual differentiate </p><p>between treasures found in a creature’s lair, den, or base and </p><p>those carried by individuals. Treasure gained through a random </p><p>encounter will be smaller than treasure gained through a </p><p>planned encounter. If a random treasure is larger or more sig-</p><p>nificant than a placed one, the players are going to remember </p><p>and value the random encounter more than the plot.</p><p>TREASURE & MAGICAL ITEMS</p><p> Treasures should be used to build the adventure, develop </p><p>a plot, and reward intelligent and daring play. If they just </p><p>appear randomly, not only is the DM throwing away a useful </p><p>adventure-building device, he is threatening his overall cam-</p><p>paign. In general, a large treasure should be a planned part of </p><p>an adventure, a way to motivate players, or a goal to be </p><p>achieved by the characters.</p><p> And remember, as important as treasure is, it need not be </p><p>the sole motivator for a story. Indeed, there are times when it </p><p>will be unimportant to the adventure. In these cases, the plot </p><p>doesn’t need the outside motivation of cash to interest the </p><p>players. Still, small rewards should still be made available to </p><p>the players. A treasure reward, no matter how small, gives the </p><p>players the feeling that their characters are succeeding and </p><p>moving ahead.</p><p>TREASURE TABLES</p><p></p><p>To simplify the assignment of treasures </p><p>to lairs and monsters, the AD&D game </p><p>uses a set of alphabetic codes to catego-</p><p>rize different sizes and types of treasure. </p><p>Each monster listing in the Monstrous Manual has a “Trea-</p><p>sure Type” listing followed by a series of letters. These letters </p><p>refer to Table 83 in Appendix 1 of the DMG.</p><p></p><p>MAINTAINING BALANCE</p><p><strong>For all his good intentions, sooner or</strong></p><p><strong>later the DM is likely to err in the</strong></p><p><strong>awarding of treasure. Either he will</strong></p><p><strong>award too little or hand out too much</strong></p><p><strong>The first is just tight-fistedness; the second leads to high</strong></p><p><strong>powered, low-role-playing campaigns (sometimes called</strong></p><p><strong>“Monty Haul’’ dungeons).</strong></p><p> <strong>Now, if both DM and players enjoy a particular type of</strong></p><p><strong>campaign and are having a good time, there is no problem to</strong></p><p><strong>fix. However, more often than not, these two extreme adven</strong></p><p><strong>turing styles lead to game problems.</strong></p><p>TOO LITTLE TREASURE</p><p> In the case of a tight-fisted DM, the most obvious signs </p><p>that the players are not having fun are frustration, cynicism, </p><p>and low expectations. If the characters are not finding trea-</p><p>sures commensurate to the risks they took, the players are </p><p>going to wonder if all the effort of playing is really worth it. </p><p>They become frustrated when, upon solving a devious trap, </p><p>they discover a pittance, or nothing at all.</p><p> Their cynicism shows as they start to make snide remarks </p><p>about the level of rewards they have received or are likely to </p><p>get for future efforts. Finally, they just begin to expect less and </p><p>less from the DM’s campaign, until it reaches the point where </p><p>they expect nothing and they go home! In such a campaign, </p><p>the DM may have a fine time, creating detailed settings and </p><p>elaborate adventures. But if he does not have the enthusiasm </p><p>of his players, there isn’t much point in playing.</p><p><strong> Such a campaign can succeed if there are other rewards </strong></p><p><strong>that involve the players in the game. Perhaps there are ample </strong></p><p><strong>opportunities for character advancement or personality devel-</strong></p><p><strong>opment. The characters may have the opportunity to play a </strong></p><p><strong>decisive role in world affairs. T<em><u>hese things are possible, but </u></em></strong></p><p><strong><u><em>only a DM of extraordinary skill can o</em></u><em><u>vercome the drawbacks </u></em></strong></p><p><strong><u><em>he has created.</em></u></strong></p><p> Fortunately, the problems of too little treasure are easily </p><p>fixed—simply introduce more treasure into the campaign. No </p><p>adjustments need to be made to the characters. The trea-</p><p>sures available in the game world can be increased without </p><p>the players even aware that the change has been effected.</p><p>MONTY HAUL CAMPAIGNS</p><p> At the other extreme, the problems of too much treasure </p><p>are not so easily solved. Here players may enjoy the game—</p><p>and why not? Their characters are doing quite well. They </p><p>have sufficient money and magic to best any situation the </p><p>DM can devise.</p><p> However, the DM seldom has the same enjoyment. He is </p><p>faced with the task of topping the last lucrative adventure. He </p><p>must make each adventure a greater challenge than the last. </p><p>While this is true for all DMs, it is grossly exaggerated for the </p><p>DM who has given out too much: How do you top the adven-</p><p>ture where the fighter got the Hammer of Thor or some </p><p>equally valuable item?</p><p><strong> Invariably, the players reach a point where they, too, </strong></p><p><strong>become frustrated. Everything is the same—”Oh, we did this </strong></p><p><strong>before,” or “Ho-hum. Another Sword of Instant Monster </strong></p><p><strong>Destruction.” Soon there are no challenges left, because the </strong></p><p><strong>characters have earned everything in the book!</strong></p><p> <strong>Fixing such a situation is far from easy.</strong> The first thing to do </p><p>is to stop giving out so much treasure in future adventures. </p><p>Even this isn’t as simple as it sounds, since players have </p><p>already had their expectations built up. Imagine playing for </p><p>months or years in a world where you routinely find 5 magical </p><p>items and tens of thousands of gold pieces each adventure </p><p>and then, one day, finding only two or three magical items </p><p>and a thousand gold pieces! Still, painful as it may be for play-</p><p>ers, cutting back on future treasure hauls is a must.</p><p> The second part of the fix is far more difficult—remove </p><p>from the campaign some of what has already been given. </p><p>Most players won’t voluntarily surrender their goods and </p><p>equipment just because the DM made a mistake. The DM </p><p>must be inventive, resorting to new and bizarre taxes, acci-</p><p>dents, theft, and anything else he can think of. Use a given </p><p>method only once and be sure to allow the characters a fair </p><p>chance. Nothing will upset and anger players more than hav-</p><p>ing their characters jerked about like a dog on a chain.</p><p> Sometimes the situation has just gotten so far out of hand </p><p>that there is no way to bring it back under control. For exam-</p><p>ple, because the DM has given out excessive magic, the play-</p><p>ers have near-godlike powers. They have used wishes to </p><p>exceed ability score limits and enhance their classes with </p><p>permanent abilities. They have fashioned other-planar strong-</p><p>hold impervious to anything. They have reached the point </p><p>where they are dictating the structure of the game to the DM. </p><p>There is only one cure—starting over.</p><p> Require all the characters to retire, and begin anew with </p><p>1st-level characters, being careful not to make the same mis-</p><p>takes again. The players may grumble and complain, but if </p><p>the DM is fair, the complaints should eventually be overcome. </p><p>To this end, the DM may even want to set the new characters </p><p>in a different part of his campaign world, one that has not </p><p>been explored before.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Once players have even a <em>single</em> magic item they are above the curve for monster math & due to bounded accuracy higher level PCs find themselves with skills & abilities that on their own <a href="https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48414/roleplaying-games/1dd-the-5e-skill-system-is-bad" target="_blank">scaled far beyond the bounds of a system </a>designed for the needs of lower levels. With no need for equipment upgrades & skills that surpass any possible challenges thrown their way you wind up with high level PCs with shallow ties as a result of those PCs having no need to interact with the world as entities who care about their place in it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9020244, member: 93670"] You still are not presenting anything about the merits of 5e that allow what you are talking about & that's not too surprising given that there is ample evidence of problems in 5e's design. High level play in 5e is incapable of meeting the bar that lower level play can because the design eliminates any need for PCs to improve their equipment, that's a thing wotc has been very up front about admitting from the start. [spoiler="motivation is system & edition agnostic"] Planned and Random Encounter Treasures It is important for the DM to distinguish between placed treasures and those found with random encounters. The scale of the two is vastly different. Monster descriptions in the Monstrous Manual differentiate between treasures found in a creature’s lair, den, or base and those carried by individuals. Treasure gained through a random encounter will be smaller than treasure gained through a planned encounter. If a random treasure is larger or more sig- nificant than a placed one, the players are going to remember and value the random encounter more than the plot. TREASURE & MAGICAL ITEMS Treasures should be used to build the adventure, develop a plot, and reward intelligent and daring play. If they just appear randomly, not only is the DM throwing away a useful adventure-building device, he is threatening his overall cam- paign. In general, a large treasure should be a planned part of an adventure, a way to motivate players, or a goal to be achieved by the characters. And remember, as important as treasure is, it need not be the sole motivator for a story. Indeed, there are times when it will be unimportant to the adventure. In these cases, the plot doesn’t need the outside motivation of cash to interest the players. Still, small rewards should still be made available to the players. A treasure reward, no matter how small, gives the players the feeling that their characters are succeeding and moving ahead. TREASURE TABLES To simplify the assignment of treasures to lairs and monsters, the AD&D game uses a set of alphabetic codes to catego- rize different sizes and types of treasure. Each monster listing in the Monstrous Manual has a “Trea- sure Type” listing followed by a series of letters. These letters refer to Table 83 in Appendix 1 of the DMG. MAINTAINING BALANCE [B]For all his good intentions, sooner or later the DM is likely to err in the awarding of treasure. Either he will award too little or hand out too much The first is just tight-fistedness; the second leads to high powered, low-role-playing campaigns (sometimes called “Monty Haul’’ dungeons). Now, if both DM and players enjoy a particular type of campaign and are having a good time, there is no problem to fix. However, more often than not, these two extreme adven turing styles lead to game problems.[/B] TOO LITTLE TREASURE In the case of a tight-fisted DM, the most obvious signs that the players are not having fun are frustration, cynicism, and low expectations. If the characters are not finding trea- sures commensurate to the risks they took, the players are going to wonder if all the effort of playing is really worth it. They become frustrated when, upon solving a devious trap, they discover a pittance, or nothing at all. Their cynicism shows as they start to make snide remarks about the level of rewards they have received or are likely to get for future efforts. Finally, they just begin to expect less and less from the DM’s campaign, until it reaches the point where they expect nothing and they go home! In such a campaign, the DM may have a fine time, creating detailed settings and elaborate adventures. But if he does not have the enthusiasm of his players, there isn’t much point in playing. [B] Such a campaign can succeed if there are other rewards that involve the players in the game. Perhaps there are ample opportunities for character advancement or personality devel- opment. The characters may have the opportunity to play a decisive role in world affairs. T[I][U]hese things are possible, but [/U][/I] [U][I]only a DM of extraordinary skill can o[/I][/U][I][U]vercome the drawbacks [/U][/I] [U][I]he has created.[/I][/U][/B] Fortunately, the problems of too little treasure are easily fixed—simply introduce more treasure into the campaign. No adjustments need to be made to the characters. The trea- sures available in the game world can be increased without the players even aware that the change has been effected. MONTY HAUL CAMPAIGNS At the other extreme, the problems of too much treasure are not so easily solved. Here players may enjoy the game— and why not? Their characters are doing quite well. They have sufficient money and magic to best any situation the DM can devise. However, the DM seldom has the same enjoyment. He is faced with the task of topping the last lucrative adventure. He must make each adventure a greater challenge than the last. While this is true for all DMs, it is grossly exaggerated for the DM who has given out too much: How do you top the adven- ture where the fighter got the Hammer of Thor or some equally valuable item? [B] Invariably, the players reach a point where they, too, become frustrated. Everything is the same—”Oh, we did this before,” or “Ho-hum. Another Sword of Instant Monster Destruction.” Soon there are no challenges left, because the characters have earned everything in the book! Fixing such a situation is far from easy.[/B] The first thing to do is to stop giving out so much treasure in future adventures. Even this isn’t as simple as it sounds, since players have already had their expectations built up. Imagine playing for months or years in a world where you routinely find 5 magical items and tens of thousands of gold pieces each adventure and then, one day, finding only two or three magical items and a thousand gold pieces! Still, painful as it may be for play- ers, cutting back on future treasure hauls is a must. The second part of the fix is far more difficult—remove from the campaign some of what has already been given. Most players won’t voluntarily surrender their goods and equipment just because the DM made a mistake. The DM must be inventive, resorting to new and bizarre taxes, acci- dents, theft, and anything else he can think of. Use a given method only once and be sure to allow the characters a fair chance. Nothing will upset and anger players more than hav- ing their characters jerked about like a dog on a chain. Sometimes the situation has just gotten so far out of hand that there is no way to bring it back under control. For exam- ple, because the DM has given out excessive magic, the play- ers have near-godlike powers. They have used wishes to exceed ability score limits and enhance their classes with permanent abilities. They have fashioned other-planar strong- hold impervious to anything. They have reached the point where they are dictating the structure of the game to the DM. There is only one cure—starting over. Require all the characters to retire, and begin anew with 1st-level characters, being careful not to make the same mis- takes again. The players may grumble and complain, but if the DM is fair, the complaints should eventually be overcome. To this end, the DM may even want to set the new characters in a different part of his campaign world, one that has not been explored before. [/spoiler] Once players have even a [I]single[/I] magic item they are above the curve for monster math & due to bounded accuracy higher level PCs find themselves with skills & abilities that on their own [URL='https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48414/roleplaying-games/1dd-the-5e-skill-system-is-bad']scaled far beyond the bounds of a system [/URL]designed for the needs of lower levels. With no need for equipment upgrades & skills that surpass any possible challenges thrown their way you wind up with high level PCs with shallow ties as a result of those PCs having no need to interact with the world as entities who care about their place in it. [/QUOTE]
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Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.
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