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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 8694107" data-attributes="member: 6855114">I am on the same side as you are. But you should stop trying to explain how good alignments are simply because of the following.I feel that some here have had bad experiences with the alignment systems because of either abusive DMs or the fact that the system is relatively vague and leads to confusion when no care is taken to put people on the same page. In the first case, we have the people that have been burned once or more and do not want to get burned again. An understandable position but hardly a logical one. Take the example of the paladin losing his title and powers for unlawful or evil actions. Depending on the DM, it could have been entirely justified but if no warning were given then the player is justified in his resentment.  If warning were given, then the resentment is unjustified if the loss was because the player continued in the path he wanted. But that same player might see the fall from grace as denying him his agency. This is where I say that at some point, you have to take responsibility for your actions. The second case would usually be easier to solve. Talk with the players at session zero. If one player has trouble with the definitions, then adjust to the majority but let the player plead his case. If the vote goes against his view. Again two possibilities.  Either the player accepts and conforms to the table or the player do not accept and leave his place to somebody else. If the player stays without accepting the resulting vote, it will lead to dissension and arguments and at some point,  the player will accuse the DM of denying him his agency...There are bad DMs out there, but there are also bad players. I once had a player that did not agree with the table but stayed pretending otherwise. It did not take long for me/us to notice that the player was constantly stretching what was accepted at our table and what was not (and it did not have anything to do with alignment but the analogy is close enough). That player git booted out after only 5 sessions and replaced with another player. For the booted player, I am.the worst DM ever and no amount of proof to the contrary will ever sway his mind to consider otherwise. So here, in this thread, it appears that we are simply talking with people that have been burned once too many times.</blockquote>

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