Rethinking Multiclassing XP Penalties

[Cheiromancer]

I was thinking about the phenomenon of "cherry picking" sometimes seen when folks want to powergame/optimize their characters (taking a few levels of many classes in order to maximize character power) and it occurred to me that the xp penalty for multiclassing is exactly backwards: it punishes people for having disparate character levels, and rewards them for having character levels all the same. It should do the opposite; it should reward characters for having a single non-favored class, with perhaps a splash of other non-favored classes. Rogue1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 2 hybrids should be avoided!

So suppose that for every class that a character had within 1 level of another character class, you got a 20% penalty?

A 6th level elven rogue could add a splash of fighter- up to 4 levels, actually, without penalty. But then she would have to concentrate again on her highest level class. She could add any number of wizard levels, since wizard is a favored class. An elven 6/4/2 rogue/fighter/ranger would have to add either wizard levels or increase her rogue level; any other choice would incur a 20% penalty.

A parallel rule could be imposed for prestige classes; you need to be dedicated to a prestige class in order to advance properly. If you take more than a mild deviation (a level or two of another prestige class) after you have advanced a while in your main prestige class, you incur penalties.

So anytime a character has levels in two (or more) different prestige classes that are within 1 of each other, there is a 20% xp penalty for each prestige class involved. Prestige classes whose (non-epic) progression has been completed don't count; they have been mastered, and they don't interfere with a new direction for the character.

This would eliminate the various dragonslayer 1/spellsword 1/eldritch knight 2 type combos that you can see on WotC's optimization board.

Renouncing class abilities:

I would allow a character to temporarily give up the power of a class in order to concentrate studies on another: by giving up all special benefits (including spellcasting and bonus feats, but not BAB, HD, saves or skills), they could ignore that class when computing xp penalties. It would be like 1e, when a human could be dual classed by renouncing the class abilities of one class in favor of another; the other class abilities could be used freely as soon as the new class was a higher level than the old.

An elven rogue 1 could add fighter levels without an xp penalty as long as she gave up the use of rogue special abilities (i.e. sneak attack) until her fighter level was at least 3. Then she could use rogue levels again freely. She could also add rogue levels, as long as her fighter level stays at least two greater than her rogue level.

If an elven rogue 2/fighter 4 decides to pursue a roguish career after all, she could avoid an xp penalty by giving up the use of her three fighter bonus feats (and any feats they are a pre-requisite for) until she was a rogue 6/fighter 4. Then she could use the feats freely.

 

[Cheiromancer]

No comments?

Maybe I worded it poorly. I want xp penalties if non-favored classes are too close together.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

This is a very interesting idea. I don't know though, how one would implement the rule of renouncing class abilities in the middle of a campaign. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to have an NPC that the characters could meet that comes from a foreign and strange land and is currently renouncing abilities from one class to advance in another. I suppose another option could be to only allow this feature to primitive species. The only way primitives get better in a new class is only by truly focusing on advancing the new character class. Either way, or both ways, it is a concept worth considering. Consider it yoinked.

 

[reanjr]

But then starting fighter/mages would be penalized, for instance. I would rather see something along the lines of a 20% penalty for each class that was less than or equal to one-quarter your character level.

One of the main issues I see with multiclassing is a problem of too many classes not losing anything due to it. A multiclass Barbarian/Paladin/Fighter/Ranger has lost nothing, has gained better saves overall than any of those classes could attain, the same BAB, and a slew of complimentary class abilities (a raging, smiting character with Track and another bonus feat, +10 ft movement, proficiency in all Martial Weapon, all Armor, all Shields, an average of almost 4 skill points per level in a variaty of skills).

I think some fundamental things should change when multiclassing. For instance, is there any benefit to taking Fighter at first level for a Fighter/Barbarian? Barbarian first gets you 8 additional skill points and an additional hit point.

I don't think multiclassing should grant weapon and armor proficiencies. I see that as something akin to the bonus skill points a character gets at first level. It also seems somewhat ludicrous that your 10th level wizard hasn't been able to figure out how to use a sword effectively, but takes a level in Fighter and suddenly can use almost any weapon in the game.

I also heard from someone that once a skill is a class skill, your max ranks in that skill are permanently treated as a class skill? If that's correct, I disagree with that one as well.

For flavor purposes, it seems to me that the favored class is the class that is supposed to be dipped in. For instance, you have a Dwarven Wizard. His primary focus is on casting spells, but because of his race, he has also picked up a few levels in fighter, because that's what dwarves do. Anything els ehe's dipping in should be an XP hit.

 

[drnuncheon]

I also heard from someone that once a skill is a class skill, your max ranks in that skill are permanently treated as a class skill? If that's correct, I disagree with that one as well.

That is correct, and it's only for max ranks - when levelling up you pay costs based on the class you are levelling in.

While you may not agree with the rule, it is necessary - otherwise you run into problems with multiclassing: say a first level rogue multiclasses into fighter. He's got 4 ranks in Open Lock, but since he's now a fighter, it's a cross-class skill and he can only have 2 ranks in it. Does he suddenly forget half of what he knows about lockpicking? That doesn't make much sense.

Is he prevented from learning anything else about it? Apparently the fighter going from first level to second can find time to learn something about opening locks (as a cross-class skill) but he can't? And if you say he's too busy learning to be a first level fighter, what about when he takes a second level in fighter?

The skill cap for multiclassing works fine. Changing it would cause too many problems for multiclass characters, and make them an even less attractive option.

J

 

[darthkilmor]

I was thinking about the phenomenon of "cherry picking" sometimes seen when folks want to powergame/optimize their characters (taking a few levels of many classes in order to maximize character power) and it occurred to me that the xp penalty for multiclassing is exactly backwards: it punishes people for having disparate character levels, and rewards them for having character levels all the same. It should do the opposite; it should reward characters for having a single non-favored class, with perhaps a splash of other non-favored classes. Rogue1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 2 hybrids should be avoided!

So suppose that for every class that a character had within 1 level of another character class, you got a 20% penalty?

I may be remembering the rules incorrectly( dont have the books here at work, too lazy to look up the srd), but I thought mutli-classing went as follows:
you have a favored class, doesnt count for xp penalty.
You can have one more class with no xp penalty.
each additional class is a -20% penalty.

So a dwarf can get lvls in fighter and whatever else with no penalty, regardless of how far apart the lvls are. He adds a lvl of something else and now he's got a 20% penalty, forever.

So a, Rogue1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 2 , assume one of those is a favored class, he'd have a 40% xp penalty. So in any real adventure, he's gonna be behind. Alot. And by the time everyone else is around lvl 15, he's gonna be dead weight, ineffective, and looking to retire the hybrid and come in with a new character (seen it happen). Dont forget the training time to get that first lvl either. it wont automagically happen in the middle of a dungeon crawl, its gonna take months of training. So a wizard is gonna have to go out and spend months with some fighters learning enough to be able to use all martial weapons, all armor, etc etc. A fighter needs to study up, Alot, to learn to cast spells. you could say that if he already had some ranks in spellcraft then he's been tinkering along the way it cut the time way down, but if you dont have months between adventures, its not gonna happen. Thats how I would handle it anyway( and could be totally not raw, but who cares)

 

[Cheiromancer]

I may be remembering the rules incorrectly( dont have the books here at work, too lazy to look up the srd), but I thought mutli-classing went as follows:
you have a favored class, doesnt count for xp penalty.
You can have one more class with no xp penalty.
each additional class is a -20% penalty.

So a dwarf can get lvls in fighter and whatever else with no penalty, regardless of how far apart the lvls are. He adds a lvl of something else and now he's got a 20% penalty, forever.

The multiclassing rules say that as long as your classes are within 1 level of each other, there is no xp penalty. Your Rogue1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 2 has no xp penalty by the RAW. If he was an elf, he could then add wizard levels, again with no penalty.

Still, your variant sounds workable.

reanjr,

A fighter/wizard could be an elf, a half-elf, a human, or a dwarf and not suffer xp penalties. Otherwise the levels would have to be lopsided. Wizard 3, then take a level of fighter. Or Fighter 1, then renounce (don't use) the bonus feat and take a few levels of wizard. Or suck up the xp penalty.

Your notion that multiclassing doesn't give armor/weapon proficiencies is interesting, but might be too restrictive. Maybe only 1 set of proficiencies per level (martial weapons *or* one of the armor/shield feats)?

 

[darthkilmor]

The multiclassing rules say that as long as your classes are within 1 level of each other, there is no xp penalty. Your Rogue1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Sorcerer 2 has no xp penalty by the RAW. If he was an elf, he could then add wizard levels, again with no penalty.

Yeah, thats a lame rule. Although maybe I'm confused, but that many classes just seems like a rather, weak, combination, regardless of which classes they are. I'd much rather have 18 lvls in a single class then 6rogue/6fighter/6wizard , it just seems weak.

Still, your variant sounds workable.

Thanks. It makes more sense to me at least. Although Do you have an example of a particular poly-class build that was bothering you? an individual in your campaign or just ppl on boards posting silly builds?

 

[DarkMaster]

What is the problem with gaining armor and weapon prof? The 8th level wizards who takes a level of fighter decided to focus his training on weapons and armor instead of 5th level spells. Basically through out the level he left aside arcane magic to focus on martial training.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Do you have an example of a particular poly-class build that was bothering you? an individual in your campaign or just ppl on boards posting silly builds?

Not so much on these boards, but the Optimization Board over at Wizards.com is rife with such things. Especially with multiple prestige classes.