Rethinking Random encouters

[Radiating Gnome]

So, I have been thinking . . .

My players are about to set off on a trip through the underdark at the head of a military force -- 250 dwarves and some Girallons (nevermind the problem of getting them not to try eating each other). And I've been thinking about ways to handle the trip through the underdark, in an abstract way (because I'm not mapping the damn thing) and in a way that isn't just a question of rolling a 6 or 8 sided and hoping a 1 doesn't come up.

So I hit upon making it a skill thing. One primary PC acts as a scout, and tries to lead the group around hazards and encounters. Call it a move silently check, with a synergy bonus for hide. The DC will depend upon the population of the region, and whether the party is staying on main thoroughfares or trying to avoid encounters by staying off the main roads. Call it a base DC 20, with a +5 for using high traffic areas, and a -5 for staying off the beaten path.

Then add modifiers for numbers -- ever time the count doubles, add +2. So a single figure trying to get through would be a base 20, a pair would be DC 22, four DC 24, 8 DC 26, etc. The army the PCs would be leading would be DC 38.

And, of course, there would be a +5 modifier if the PCs are using a light source in the underdark.

And, of course, any magic bonuses that apply to just one figure -- like a ring of invisibility -- don't apply to the scout's skill roll.

Any ideas/thoughts/criticisms?

-rg

 

[Matafuego]

If it's a 250 Dwarves army moving through the underdark...
The risk of getting a low level encounter, or even a high level one is not too big. After all you would not charge 250 dwarves... neither would most of the encounters...
Encounters with intelligent species (specially drows or duergar) are another matter for they could inform an even larger army...

I think that moving 250 dwarves through the underdark unnoticed is a pretty utopic idea... Although with the right magic it might work.

And even if your numbers seem fine I don't see how one scout could silence and hide 250 loud dwarves. I think you should take the average hide and MS modifiers, add a +2 or +x if you like for having a GOOD scout (that is one who makes those checks)
and pray there's nothing lurking...
The underdark is a deadly creepy place.

=\

 

[Radiating Gnome]

It's an interesting problem. My intention, with the DC doubling, is to make it require near-epic level ability to work. A DC of 38 will be very hard to hit, especially if all of the scout's personal equipment that boosts that roll won't help. I'm trying to abstract the work of a scout working her way out ahead of the group, spotting enemies and problems before the group can get there, etc. It isn't quite a perfect system yet.

One of the things I like about the system is the idea that it represents how much easier it is to get a single character through an area than it is a large group.

But it only works in certain circumstances -- very often parties are just out there in the world trying to find encounters -- why would they try to avoid them.

There would also need to be a variety of ways to set the DC in a particular area. And also the frequency of the rolls that would be required. I can see trying to sneak through a patch of woods in which you are being actively hunted working a bit differently -- take a DC of the hunter's average Spot +10 or +20, depending upon the urgency of the search. Perhaps a bonus for terrain would be in order. That sort of thing.

still noodlin

 

[Abisashi]

So, I have been thinking . . .

Sounds reasonable, and 250 isn't that huge... though I'm not sure how easy it is to manuever around stuff in the underdark.

I'm definitely going to use this for my players though. Seems so obvious now...

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Here's a more final version of what I'm thinking:

Avoid Encounters While Traveling -

As an option, random encounter rolls can be replaced by rolls to avoid encounters. This will be most useful when characters want to pass through a region unnoticed. A Move Silently check is made by a scouting character, which represents time spent scouting ahead and running intereference for the group. The Base DC for avoiding encounters is 15, which can be modified:
*Active Search -- If enemies are actively searching for the PC(s), the DM may add the hunter's average Spot check skill bonus to the base DC.
*Encounter population density (in high traffic areas, add +5 or even +10 to avoid encounter), perhaps and active search by NPCs hunting the PCs (add the hunter's average spot bonus to DC). If the PCs are on a road or it's equivalent, this modifier would apply.
*Group Size. The base DC is for a single medium-sized figure. Every time the number of figures in a group doubles or (or size changes by one level), increase the DC by two (2 humans = +2, 4 humans = +4, 4 Ogres=+8, etc).
*Bonuses to Move Silently Check, and Magic Assistance -- Determine the average bonus to Move Silently checks for the entire group, including armor check penalties, racial bonuses, magical bonuses, etc.
*Light -- if the PCs are using light sources (torches, lanterns, spells) in the dark, the DC increases by +10.
*Speed -- use the speed penalties in the Move Silently description. Moving to avoid encounters is normally at half-speed.
*Scout's Hide skill synergy bonus -- For 5 ranks, +2. For 15 ranks, +4.

So, as an example, a 10th level halfing rogue is trying to sneak out of an enemy city. The DM determines that sneaking out will take her 4 hours of sneaking, with a Avoid Encounters test each hour.

Because she is on her own, she uses her own move silently skill check (13 ranks + 2 racial +5 dex, +2 Synergy for HIde ranks) for a +22 on her roll. Her DC is +10 because a city is a very high traffic area, so the DC is 25. She will most likely get away, even without special magical help.

BUT, if that same rogue had to sneak three other party members out -- A wizard, cleric, and fighter, the check will be much more difficult. The DC for the check is now +4 (the group size doubled twice), or a DC of 29. And, she has a Wizard (dex 14, no armor, +2 bonus to Move Silently), a Cleric (dex 10, chainmail, -5 bonus to Move silently) and a fighter (dex 14, chainmail, -3 bonus to Move Silently), so the average bonus to the move silently skill check is ((9+2-5-3)/4) or 3/4, rounded up to +1. So the rogue will have a +14 bonus, and have to roll pretty high to avoid encounters.

If she can convince the cleric to cast mass cat's grace on the party, and convince the cleric and fighter to take off their armor, it would be easier. Their new bonuses would be Rogue (+11), Wizard (+4), Cleric (+2), Fighter (+4), for an average of +10 -- which would make it much more likely that they would escape. (Once the Cat's grace wore off, of course, the average would drop by +2, to +8, which is still far better than the +1 for the group with the fighter and cleric in armor)


Avoid Encounters While Camping -

As an option, random encounter rolls can be replaced by rolls to avoid encounters while camping. A Hide check is made by a scouting character, which represents time spent picking a location to camp in and hiding the camping spot from prying eyes.. The Base DC for avoiding encounters is 15, which can be modified:
*Encounter population density (in high traffic areas, add +5 or even +10 to avoid encounter), perhaps and active search by NPCs hunting the PCs (add the hunter's average spot bonus to DC). If the PCs are on a road or it's equivalent, this modifier would apply.
*Active Search -- If enemies are actively searching for the PC(s), the DM may add the hunter's average Spot check skill bonus to the base DC.
*Group Size. The base DC is for a single medium-sized figure. Every time the number of figures in a group doubles or (or size changes by one level), increase the DC by two (2 humans = +2, 4 humans = +4, 4 Ogres=+8, etc).
*Bonuses to Hide Check, and Magic Assistance -- Determine the average bonus to Hide checks for the entire group, including armor check penalties, racial bonuses, magical bonuses, etc.
*Light -- if the PCs are using light sources (torches, lanterns, campfires, spells) in the dark, the DC increases by +10.
*Scout's Move Silently skill synergy bonus-- For 5 ranks, +2. For 15 ranks, +4.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

One more addition:

I had a friend bring up the very real possibility of multiple sneaky types working together to sneak around. He suggested that we average the full skill check of everyone in the group, and use that for the roll, but I don't like that idea for a couple of reasons. First of all, it makes this a group skill check, rather than a skill check that is the provice of just one PC.

My solution is to use the Aid Another rule, but the Aid Another rules in this situation need a little adjustment.

The Aid another check allows one helper per doubling of the group size, ultimately, to counter the effect of the group size penalty with a successful Aid Another check -- but the Aid check, unlike other checks, would be modified by the size modifier of the main check. So, in the case of 330 Dwarves and Girallons my players are about to set off with -- a group that has a size penalty of +18, the aid checks would be DC 28.

For example, a group of 8 drow assassins trying to sneak around in Dyvers at night. They have a +6 penalty for doubling the group size three times, so the DC to Avoid encounters would be 26, and the aid another check that three of the 8 would be able to make would be DC 16.

This will tend to encourage smaller groups for sneaking. This group of Drow assassins might be very well served to all try to sneak in separately. As the groups get bigger and bigger, they get more and more ungainly, and much more difficult to shepherd past encounters. And, again, this wouldn't be an all-the-time sort of thing. It's just meant to be an abstract way to handle certain circumstances -- when the PCs are not traveling openly, etc.

Another example: A party of PCs are asked to escort a band of 30 refugees out of the forest where they are being sought by patrols of human soldiers.

The Party consists of the Four 10th level characters mentioned above, as well as a 10th level ranger with 5 ranks of Move Silent and 5 ranks of Hide. The DM determines that the population density of the forest is not high or very high, so the base DC is 15, and the group will have to make a check every hour, for 8 hours, to reach the safe side of the forest.

The patrols seaching for the PCs have an average Spot bonus of +6, and the group includes 35 medium sized creatures, so the number has been doubled 6 times, for a total of +12. The PCs are lucky, though, in that the moon is out, and they can get by without having to carry light sources, which would make them far easier to spot.

So, the PCs are not wearing armor again. Their base bonuses to their mov silently skill checks would be Rogue (+9), Wizard (+2), Cleric (+0), Fighter (+2), and the ranger (+5), and the 30 refugees all at +0, for an average of a bonus to the move silently check of +18/35, rounded down to 0. The rogue will be making her skill check with ranks alone, at +13, and needs a (15 base + 6 Average Spot + 12 group size = 33) 33 to succeed -- so, working alone, she can only hope to succeed on a roll of a 20.

However, because the group size is doubled 6 times, the other members of the party can all try to assist -- with a DC of 16 (DC 10 base +6 for the group size). given that there are four other members of the party, and only the ranger has any significant skill in hiding, the PCs can expect to assist an average of 1-2 times per test, which would mean the rogue will still have to roll quite high to successfully lead the refugees past the patrols.

Taking smaller groups of refugees out would make a big difference -- it would make it easier for the mage and cleric to cast spells on the whole group to help with their move silently checks (mass cat's grace, etc), would reduce the base DC of the test, and would make it easier for the other PCs to Aid the rogue with her test.

If, for example, the Ranger took a small group of 3 refugees separately, just enough to bring the group count in the main group to 31 (and take away one level of doubling in the main group), he would have to make a DC of 25 (15 base + 6 Spot +4 Group size), while the main group's DC would go down to 31. Given the Ranger's dex and equipment bonuses totalling +5 to this test, and the 0 for the refugees, he'll have an average of +5/4 = +1 bonus for the skill check, and given his ranks and synergy bonus, he'll make is roll at +8. Two of the refugees might be able to help, rolling unskilled but with an Aid another DC of 14, they would have a decent chance that at least one of them would succeed each round.

-rg

 

[Capellan]

I'd suggest that survival is a more appropriate skill than move silently, at that the synergy bonus should come from Spot, not Hide.

When it comes to groups travelling unnoticed over large distances, it's mroe about spotting the enemy first, and covering your tracks, than it is about how sneaky one person can be.

Just a thought.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

I think you make good suggestions for additional options for synergy bonuses. I can imagine situations where all of these skills would be a big help, and I'd suggest offering synergy bonuses for any and all, depending upon the circumstances. I don't know that I'd allow more than once circumstance bonus for skill synergy, though. But a lot would depend upon the situation.

For example, trying to sneak through back alleys from one side of town to the other without being seen would not be a good spot for a synergy bonus for survival.

-rg

 

[Rhuarc]

1. How often should a party make the check? Once an hour, once a day?

2. Another suggestion. I would increase the DC if the group members are larger than medium and grant a lower DC for smaller ones. It is obvisously harder to get 10 halflings through the wood as it would be with 10, silly I know, dragons.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Okay, the size thing is taken care of in the Numbers mods (It could be clearer -- it says that the DC goes up ever time the numbers double or the size changes by one level -- but to make it clearer, it should say that the FIGURE size changes up by a level the DC is +2, and the DC goes down by two for figures that are smaller. And even that isn't clear, or very useful -- I should just lift the text from spells like teleport where a huge creature counts as two medium, a small creature as half a medium etc. So the intention was there, it just isn't very clear.

The frequency of the checks is one of the things that should be at the DM's discretion, and would depend a great deal upon the frequency of normal encounter checks and the encounter density of the area. The number of "Avoid Encounter" tests should come about as frequently as an encounter could be reasonably expected to happen -- so if you roll a d6 six times a day, and on a 1 there is an encounter, the avoid encounters test should happen once a day. If you are in a much more highly populated area, and you make tests hourly, them make the Avoid Encounter tests every four to six hours. If you make tests every ten minutes, make the Avoid Encounters test every hour. And so on.

But, the real intention for this system is that it be used in areas where there are specific encounters that the PCs are trying to avoid -- sneaking past sentries, sneaking around a city without being spotted by the watch, avoiding hunters, etc. And it's an abstraction, meant to be a way of representing a long sneak past many guard posts and sentries, etc, without having to actually have the various posts or encounter spots mapped, etc. It won't be a good replacement in situations where the PCs are not making any effort to avoid encounters, etc.

-rg