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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Radiating Gnome" data-source="post: 1436313" data-attributes="member: 150">One more addition:I had a friend bring up the very real possibility of multiple sneaky types working together to sneak around. He suggested that we average the full skill check of everyone in the group, and use that for the roll, but I don't like that idea for a couple of reasons. First of all, it makes this a group skill check, rather than a skill check that is the provice of just one PC. My solution is to use the Aid Another rule, but the Aid Another rules in this situation need a little adjustment. The Aid another check allows one helper per doubling of the group size, ultimately, to counter the effect of the group size penalty with a successful Aid Another check -- but the Aid check, unlike other checks, would be modified by the size modifier of the main check. So, in the case of 330 Dwarves and Girallons my players are about to set off with -- a group that has a size penalty of +18, the aid checks would be DC 28. For example, a group of 8 drow assassins trying to sneak around in Dyvers at night. They have a +6 penalty for doubling the group size three times, so the DC to Avoid encounters would be 26, and the aid another check that three of the 8 would be able to make would be DC 16. This will tend to encourage smaller groups for sneaking. This group of Drow assassins might be very well served to all try to sneak in separately. As the groups get bigger and bigger, they get more and more ungainly, and much more difficult to shepherd past encounters. And, again, this wouldn't be an all-the-time sort of thing. It's just meant to be an abstract way to handle certain circumstances -- when the PCs are not traveling openly, etc. Another example: A party of PCs are asked to escort a band of 30 refugees out of the forest where they are being sought by patrols of human soldiers. The Party consists of the Four 10th level characters mentioned above, as well as a 10th level ranger with 5 ranks of Move Silent and 5 ranks of Hide. The DM determines that the population density of the forest is not high or very high, so the base DC is 15, and the group will have to make a check every hour, for 8 hours, to reach the safe side of the forest. The patrols seaching for the PCs have an average Spot bonus of +6, and the group includes 35 medium sized creatures, so the number has been doubled 6 times, for a total of +12. The PCs are lucky, though, in that the moon is out, and they can get by without having to carry light sources, which would make them far easier to spot. So, the PCs are not wearing armor again. Their base bonuses to their mov silently skill checks would be Rogue (+9), Wizard (+2), Cleric (+0), Fighter (+2), and the ranger (+5), and the 30 refugees all at +0, for an average of a bonus to the move silently check of +18/35, rounded down to 0. The rogue will be making her skill check with ranks alone, at +13, and needs a (15 base + 6 Average Spot + 12 group size = 33) 33 to succeed -- so, working alone, she can only hope to succeed on a roll of a 20. However, because the group size is doubled 6 times, the other members of the party can all try to assist -- with a DC of 16 (DC 10 base +6 for the group size). given that there are four other members of the party, and only the ranger has any significant skill in hiding, the PCs can expect to assist an average of 1-2 times per test, which would mean the rogue will still have to roll quite high to successfully lead the refugees past the patrols. Taking smaller groups of refugees out would make a big difference -- it would make it easier for the mage and cleric to cast spells on the whole group to help with their move silently checks (mass cat's grace, etc), would reduce the base DC of the test, and would make it easier for the other PCs to Aid the rogue with her test.If, for example, the Ranger took a small group of 3 refugees separately, just enough to bring the group count in the main group to 31 (and take away one level of doubling in the main group), he would have to make a DC of 25 (15 base + 6 Spot +4 Group size), while the main group's DC would go down to 31.  Given the Ranger's dex and equipment bonuses totalling +5 to this test, and the 0 for the refugees, he'll have an average of +5/4 = +1 bonus for the skill check, and given his ranks and synergy bonus, he'll make is roll at +8. Two of the refugees might be able to help, rolling unskilled but with an Aid another DC of 14, they would have a decent chance that at least one of them would succeed each round.  -rg</blockquote>

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