Return to the Tomb of Horrors: DM Advice

[Mark Causey]

If there's another thread for this elsewhere; I apologize, please send me that way.

What are some suggested levels if wanting to run RttToH in 3.5e? What if I wanted to run it with Gestalt characters? Any general advice before starting this up with my group?

 

[Joshua Randall]

There is a d20 conversion of it here.

the Jester posted some extensive notes on his conversion
and some more random discussion between the Jester and me

You can find some of the unique (at the time) monsters in various 3.x sources such as the Epic Level Handbook.

 

[Henry]

It strikes me that your players will want their PCs to be about 20th level to handle the final confrontation of this module. In truth, I'd start them at 9th or even 10th level for the opening areas, and be sure they were 13th or so before they even got to the Necromancer's Academy. I have a personal dislike for gestalt characters, but if you use them, it still won't reduce the lethality of the module as planned.

One thing: I would NOT use the recreated Winter Wights from the Epic Level handbook - I don't think they were meant to be that tough! I'd redesign them from their 2E stats.

I would however, keep the deadliness quotient, and let them know through hints and rumors that Acererak was the most baddest worst evillest mother undead wizard to ever exist, just so they know what they're getting into, but don't let them know this until after the part where they find out what his main plan is.

 

[Mark Causey]

There is a d20 conversion of it here.

the Jester posted some extensive notes...

I have the conversion, and it is because it was so professionaly done that I'm even considering this. Thanks for the links.

It strikes me that your players will want their PCs to be about 20th level to handle the final confrontation of this module. In truth, I'd start them at 9th or even 10th level for the opening areas, and be sure they were 13th or so before they even got to the Necromancer's Academy. I have a personal dislike for gestalt characters, but if you use them, it still won't reduce the lethality of the module as planned.

One thing: I would NOT use the recreated Winter Wights from the Epic Level handbook - I don't think they were meant to be that tough! I'd redesign them from their 2E stats.

I would however, keep the deadliness quotient, and let them know through hints and rumors that Acererak was the most baddest worst evillest mother porker undead wizard to ever exist, just so they know what they're getting into, but don't let them know this until after the part where they find out what his main plan is.

The gestalt idea was meant to somewhat ameliorate the lethality of the module; but if I'm in for a penny then I should be in for a pound, right? I will review the winter wights as suggested before implementing them. As for letting them know, I'm going to approach this as: I want you all to know that, unlike before, I will hate your characters and you will probably hate me; Let's see if you can survive!

 

[Joshua Randall]

If (when) I DM the Return, I intend to give a speech something like this:

Normally, the DM and the players cooperate to create a fun game.

Not this time. I'm not on your side. I'm out to get you. I will be devious, evil, and utterly ruthless. I will use every legal trick at my disposal to hurt or destroy your characters.

Your challenge is to beat me at my own game.

Bring it!

 

[Mark Causey]

If I do end up doing this, I may very well use your speech.

If I do end up doing this, it will be a full blown start to finish production: props, premade maps, NPCs played to the hilt, even the traps might be molded from clay if needed. And a story hour.

IF I end up doing this.

 

[Mark Causey]

If I wanted them to start at a lower level (say, 8th) and wanted to, with the most rapidity and enjoyment, shuffle them up to starting level, say 13th?, what would y'all suggest?

 

[BlackMoria]

The adventure is staged in 'scenes'. The wight attack provides a clue to the stronghold, a clue in the stronghold leads to Grunther. The meeting with Grunther leads to Sather, etc.

Because of the scenes, you can control the 'when' and 'how'. For example, the party need to track down Grunther. Make a adventure that has Grunther somehow involved in some fashion. Now the characters have to get involved in this mini-adventure to talk to Grunther.

Same thing with Sather and the Black Academy. The party needs to get involved in adventures to reach these two.

You should be able to fill the void between 8th level and 13th no problem with mini-adventures whose purpose is to give the party XP to advance to a appropriate level and provides the hook leading to the next 'scene'.

 

[Psion]

One thing: I would NOT use the recreated Winter Wights from the Epic Level handbook - I don't think they were meant to be that tough! I'd redesign them from their 2E stats.

Legends of Avadnu has a template specifically to down-power epic creatures.

That said, I'm not so sure they are out of line for a party that has a credible chance against Ackerack.

 

[the Jester]

One thing: I would NOT use the recreated Winter Wights from the Epic Level handbook - I don't think they were meant to be that tough! I'd redesign them from their 2E stats.

I disagree. The winter-wights' stats in 2e reflected that pcs 'topped out' at much lower levels. Especially if you want a sense that Acererak's schemes are plausibly within his reach, he must be super powerful. I used the basic ELH demilich as my version of him; without the winter-wights to provide some serious, heavy-duty xp on the way the party might not have made it.