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Message: <blockquote data-quote="coyote6" data-source="post: 1208504" data-attributes="member: 1225">IME, attempts to "munchkin-proof" RPGs end up, after a point, with rules that are unnecessarily convuluted and/or plain stupid. Further, in a superhero system, you want to allow PCs to have some amazing abilities, so munchkin-proofing seems to end up limiting what kind of characters one can create (usually to the system's discredit). Finally, munchkin-proofing always fails, anyways. I haven't seen any RPG that can't be abused. Therefore, aside from steps that are really just good game design, excessive amounts of munchkin-proofing is a waste of time and energy. Tell the GM & players "hey, don't abuse the rules -- what's the point?", and let individual GMs and players decide what's abusive and what's not. (The line developer can decide for the game.)Somewhere, I think I have a quote by Sean Punch (GURPS Line Editor) on this subject; but I can't find it, alas.Well, character creation isn't the same to me as character advancement. By "gaming the system", I mean abusing the game system; when we played Champions, we called it "raping the rules". My favorite example involved combining Champions II's rules on END Battery recovery (1/10th per recovery) with increased recovery, high END Battery multiples, and Increased END limitations (you buy END Battery at, say, x128, recovery once per phase or segment; this is a huge Advantage; then buy Increased END x250 -- this is an even huger limitation, but has no real net effect. You can make the Increased END large enough to reduce the price to anything you want; add Area Effect and Uncontrolled COntinuous to suit your tastes. Perfectly legal in Champions 2e, as far as I could tell, and completely abusive).With M&M, I think the designer's assumption is that players will play the superheroes they want to play, rather than min-maxing their character's design so as to get The Most Power. Ultimately, it's futile. The GM can always create a character that can defeat any PC.May I introduce you to Spinnerette, a PC from my M&M game with nothing above rank 8 (and the only things at rank 8 are Swinging and Snare)? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Palisade doesn't have Super-Strength maxed out (rank 8) nor Protection, though Flight is and she has Amazing Save (Damage), which hits 10 ranks when combined with Protection.Of course, that's only half the PCs -- the electric guy and the telekinetic are both maxed out at 10 ranks in their main powers.True.I wish they'd done a detailed character creation example, and maybe included some designer's notes on how they intended the system be used, and what explicitly stated they saw as a baseline stats (attack, Defense, offensive & defensive powers, range of powers, range of skills, etc.) for a character of beginning PL (at least). Give us a yardstick to measure with, as it were.The current situation, the only yardstick is PL limit, which gives the effect of making one think that one's character should have maxed out powers. IMO, that clearly isn't the intention, as demonstrated by sample characters (how many characters have base attack or Defense anywhere near their theoretical maximum?).Also, I think M&M will break down if every character is maxed; powerful villains like Dr. Doom, Darkseid, Atomic Brain, etc., simply won't be defeatable by PCs, if they're min-maxed -- the PL 10 attacks will bounce off of the PL 20 defenses, assuming the PCs can even hit the villain's Defense of 56 (and if the PCs are Power Attacking, they won't be able to hit).</blockquote>

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