Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

hamishspence

Adventurer
shark relationships

Interestingly, Otodus isn't aways classed as a relative of the sandtiger. Here, it is described as ancestral to the porbeagle- and great whites and megalodons, while not that closely related, are still closer related than they are to the porbeagle:

Great White Shark : Relatives, Living & Fossil

I'm not sure how well supported this view is, but it does place megalodon as within Lamnidae, rather than as closer related to the sand tiger shark (since Lamnidae includes the Great White, the porbeagle, their most recent common ancestor, and all its descendants.

Even if Otodus and Carcharocles megalodon are related, and both closer related to sand sharks than "mackerel sharks" (Lamnidae), that doesn't mean that they would have looked like sand sharks:

http://www.megalodonexpeditions.com/risefall.htm
 
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Cleon

Hero
So,

Orcas can be 16 ft Huge, 32 ft Gargantuan,
Great Whites 14-15 ft Large, 18-20 ft Huge
Megalodons 52 ft Gargantuan, 75 ft Colossal
Sperm whales 35-60 ft Gargantuan, 70-80 ft Colossal?

These seem like good baselines.

Look fine to me, although I would probably widen the Megs to something like 40-75 ft Gargantuan, 75-100 ft Colossal.

Come to think of it- instead of just going with "dire shark" to represent generic Huge and Gargantuan prehistoric sharks, we could pick out some of the more interesting ones. Dragon 318 had stats for Helicoprion, a shark with a whorl-like lower jaw. And there are possibily others.

Such as Cretoxyrhina, sometimes called "the Ginsu Shark", which was present in the late Cretaceous,, and was a bit larger than a Great White. Or Isurus hastalis, the broad-toothed mako, another big shark, believed to be ancestral to the Great White.

As far as its 3rd edition D&D stats go Cretoxyrhina would surely be nigh identical to a Great White. At best it's only a bit bigger.
 

hamishspence

Adventurer
Ginsu shark

Probably- baseline Dire Shark might do.

I'm not sure how closely related megalodon was to the lamnids- here:

Lamniformes

it's group is given as Otodontidae, and placed just below the lamnid sharks.

On the other hand, this tree also places Basking sharks right at the bottom, whereas the one on elasmo-research.org puts them at the top, above thresher sharks but below lamnids.

And, annoyingly, doesn't show where otodontids are placed.

40 ft minimum for a just-turned-adult megalodon makes sense, and about 75 ft for a megalodon of the largest size, just at the bare minimum for Colossal, and built according to the extra-bulky Gottfried model, also works.

on Hit Dice: given the value of 20 HD for a Gargantuan Spinosaurus, I'd probably use this for smaller Gargantuan creatures:

Gargantuan Orca- 32 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (female) 35 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (male) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal Sperm Whale (such as the one that sunk the Essex) 40 HD

Gargantuan megalodon (young adult) 40 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan megalodon (adult) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal megalodon (based on largest teeth known) 75 ft, 40 HD.

Do these seem about right?
 
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Cleon

Hero
on Hit Dice: given the value of 20 HD for a Gargantuan Spinosaurus, I'd probably use this for smaller Gargantuan creatures:

Gargantuan Orca- 32 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (female) 35 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan Sperm Whale (male) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal Sperm Whale (such as the one that sunk the Essex) 40 HD

Gargantuan megalodon (young adult) 40 ft long, 20 HD
Gargantuan megalodon (adult) 52 ft long, 30 HD
Colossal megalodon (based on largest teeth known) 75 ft, 40 HD.

Do these seem about right?

Those Hit Dice look OK to me, or at least they're a better fit to 3E monster HD than giving a Gargantuan sperm whale 12 HD!

Although I'd rather have sperm whales go up in dozens of Hit Dice and sharks in tens, partially because I suspect cetaceans outperform fish of the same size (due to their higher metabolism), and partly just to introduce a bit of variety.

e.g.:
Huge (half-grown) sperm whale - 12 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) sperm whale - 18 HD
Gargantuan (adult) sperm whale - 24 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder bull) sperm whale - 36 HD
Colossal (Moby Dick) sperm whale - 48 HD

And a Megadon could go
Huge (half-grown) - 10 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) - 15 HD
Gargantuan (adult) - 20 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder) - 30 HD
Colossal (Megashark!) - 40 HD
 

hamishspence

Adventurer
Huge (half-grown) sperm whale - 12 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) sperm whale - 18 HD
Gargantuan (adult) sperm whale - 24 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder bull) sperm whale - 36 HD
Colossal (Moby Dick) sperm whale - 48 HD

And a Megadon could go
Huge (half-grown) - 10 HD
Enormous (Huge-and-a-half young adult) - 15 HD
Gargantuan (adult) - 20 HD
Enormous (Gargantuan-and-a-half elder) - 30 HD
Colossal (Megashark!) - 40 HD

I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

It might work well for other cetaceans- possibly with an extension to Colossal for the biggest blue whales- 60 HD "Colossal+"

Makes for an interesting Animal Companion in a high level game.

3.5 MM does suggest that Colossal creatures have a minimum of 12 HD, but in practice, almost nothing that big has HD that low. Even Gargantuan was seriously stretching it.

I'm guessing the adult female sperm whale (Wikipedia lists it as typically 35 ft long and 15 tonnes) marks the beginning of Gargantuan- and would have 24 HD under this system.

Also- after checking the Pathfinder monster descriptions,

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterIndex.html

I've noticed that their creatures tend to be a bit closer to the normal size and weights, than some of the D&D 3.5 MM1 and MM2 animals.

For example Orcas are listed as between 15 and 25 ft long.

And most of the Dire Animals are described based on real ones- dire bear is short-faced bear, Dire Croc is Sarcosuchus, etc.

(on the other hand, their Large croc is 1400 pounds and 14 ft long- a bit on the heavy side for a 14 ft croc).
 
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hamishspence

Adventurer
Robust vs Gracile

Come to think of it, the Robust advancement (multiples of 6) vs the Gracile advancement (multiples of 5) can be used to distinguish the carnosaurs, and the sauropods, as well:

Diplodocids- gracile- Diplodocus as a 15 HD Huge-and-a-half creature, and so on

Brachiosaurs/titanosaurs/etc- robust- Apatosaurus/Brachiosaurus as 24 HD Gargantuan creature, and so on

Tyrannosaurus- robust 18 HD Huge-and-a-half
Spinosaurus- gracile 20 HD Gargantuan
Allosaurus/Albertosaurus- gracile 10 HD Huge
Daspletosaurus- robust 12 HD Huge

It works pretty well. and the T. rex, Allosaurus, and Spinosaurus all end up with the WoTC values for their Hit Dice.
 

Cleon

Hero
Come to think of it, the Robust advancement (multiples of 6) vs the Gracile advancement (multiples of 5) can be used to distinguish the carnosaurs, and the sauropods, as well:

Diplodocids- gracile- Diplodocus as a 15 HD Huge-and-a-half creature, and so on

Brachiosaurs/titanosaurs/etc- robust- Apatosaurus/Brachiosaurus as 24 HD Gargantuan creature, and so on

I'd rather not do it that way for the Sauropods since I don't feel there's that much difference in their physiology and it seems a lot of extra work separating them into gracile and robust stat blocks. Not to mention that my current take on sauropods doesn't follow the standard "double HD each size step" progression, but uses something a bit more gradual.

I would use it for gracile/robust theropods though. Come to think of it, I already do - my current stats give a standard Tyrannosaurus 18 HD, a Big Allosaurus 15 HD. That was just because I followed D&D precedent rather than some cunning 5/6 HD progression scheme, though.
 

Cleon

Hero
I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

Well I agree that Gargantuan isn't appropriate for a realistic Orca Of Unusual Size, but I was thinking 12 HD Huge would fit an average adult male orca. An average sperm whale is 40-50 feet long, which is Gargantuan 24HD under this scheme, an average orca is about half that size (20-25 feet, as big as a half-grown sperm whale calf). Huge-and-a-half would be appropriate for a very large bull orca (30-33 feet).

Using our 12-36HD model for sperm whales, I was thinking a 9HD orca would be a subadults, an average adult would have 12 HD, an enormous male 18HD and the "Moby Dicks" of the orca world would be Gargantuan whales with 24-27 HD.

I'm guessing the adult female sperm whale (Wikipedia lists it as typically 35 ft long and 15 tonnes) marks the beginning of Gargantuan- and would have 24 HD under this system.

Looking at the sizes, it's obvious that the weights will be a bit higher than is standard for creatures of that size but I think we can get away with that. Cetaceans are often massive for their lengths, and D&D often doesn't give weights for big marine animals anyway.

Also- after checking the Pathfinder monster descriptions,

Monster Index

I've noticed that their creatures tend to be a bit closer to the normal size and weights, than some of the D&D 3.5 MM1 and MM2 animals.

For example Orcas are listed as between 15 and 25 ft long.

And most of the Dire Animals are described based on real ones- dire bear is short-faced bear, Dire Croc is Sarcosuchus, etc.

(on the other hand, their Large croc is 1400 pounds and 14 ft long- a bit on the heavy side for a 14 ft croc).

Hmm, that does seem a little heavy. From the reading I've done, a particularly big crocodile is somewhere around 16 feet long and 1500-2000 pounds. Scaling that down to 14 feet (assuming it follows a cube-root relationship) and you'd get 1000-1340 pounds, so it looks like 1400 pounds is in the upper range of croc bodyweights.

I'd just round it up to 15 feet and 1500 pounds, that's close enough as far as I'm concerned.

If you'll pardon me shilling my Building a Better Crocodile post, I was thinking their lengths & weights would go something like this...

Crocodile Redux - 3 HD, 11-12 feet, 500 pounds
Large Crocodile - 7 HD, 15 feet, 1500 pounds
Giant Crocodile - 13 HD, 30 feet, 12000 pounds

It's not a great fit to my current size schema. The standard crocodile in particular is too big for its place in the progression. We may want to trim its size and weight a bit and fit the rest into a smoother progression, maybe something like...

Medium Crocodile - 2 HD, 7 feet, 125 pounds
Big Crocodile (Standard Redux) - 3 HD, 10 feet, 400 pounds
Large Crocodile - 5 HD, 14 feet, 1000 pounds
Very Large Crocodile (Large Redux) - 7 HD, 20 feet, 3000 pounds
Huge Crocodile - 10 HD, 30 feet, 12000 pounds
Enormous Crocodile (Giant Redux) - 13 HD, 40 feet, 25000 pounds
Gargantuan Crocodile - 20 HD, 60 feet, 75000 pounds
 
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Cleon

Hero
I like. However, under this system, an adult male orca might be closer to Huge-and-a-half, than Gargantuan.

It might work well for other cetaceans- possibly with an extension to Colossal for the biggest blue whales- 60 HD "Colossal+"

Makes for an interesting Animal Companion in a high level game.

By the way, by s curious serendipity when I first read this post I'd just come across this newspaper report about orcas hunting lamniform sharks.

Not only does this demonstrate that our "Orca Redux" definitely have to be tougher than regular sharks, the use of "karate chops" with their tails and exploiting the weaknesses of the shark's anatomy to stun them rather reminded me of a certain D&D character class, which led me to stat the following...
 

Cleon

Hero
Building a Better Killer Whale

Karate Killer Whale
Awakened Orca 2nd level Monk
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 11d10+2d8+65 (134 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +2 Wisdom, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+28
Attack: Bite +18 melee (2d6+12) or unarmed strike +18 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6+12) or unarmed strike +18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+8) or flurry of blows +16/+16/+11/+6 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +10
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +20* (+16 without blindsight), Spot +20* (+16 without blindsight), Swim +16, Tumble +11
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 18]

Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pod (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral
Advancement: 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–29 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:

Karate killer whales are sapient orcas, given intelligence by the druid's awaken spell, many of whom have gained levels in character classes. These creatures have a sophisticated culture based around self-discipline, survival and reverence towards nature. Most karate killer whales are monks, the above being a typical example, but a few become druids. These orca druids play a honoured and vital role in karate killer whale society, because without high-level monks to case awaken on their newborn calves, karate killer whale civilization would be reduced to beasts in a generation.

These creatures show no hostility towards most other races, but show little interest in helping non-orcas either. They have a particular dislike of sahuagin, due to the latter's destructive and chaotic nature, and extend this antipathy to the sea devils allies the sharks. Karate killer whales will go to considerable length to kill and each sahuagin and giant sharks.

A typical karate killer whale about 30 feet long. They eat fish, squid, seals, and other whales.

Karate killer whale speak Aquan.

Combat
Karate killer whales are cunning and ferocious fighters who often make well-coordinated group attacks. They usually close into melee as fast as possible, then use Stunning Fist strikes to render their foes helpless while barraging them with a torrent of terrible blows from their jaws and tail-flukes. If the foe is too powerful for a conventional approach they can be surprisingly devious.

Blindsight (Ex): A killer whale can “see” by emitting high-frequency sounds, inaudible to most other creatures, that allow them to locate objects and creatures within 120 feet. A silence spell negates this and forces the whale to rely on its vision, which is approximately as good as a human’s.

Evasion (Ex): If a karate killer whale makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it takes no damage instead. Evasion can be used only if the whale is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless karate killer whale does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Hold Breath (Ex): A killer whale can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Skills
A whale has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A whale has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsight is negated.
 
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hamishspence

Adventurer
I'd have gone with 15 HD as the midpoint between 10HD Huge and 20HD Gargantuan for crocs, but otherwise, its good- smaller Deinosuchus work for 30 ft croc, largest specimens of Deinosuchus, Purussaurus (giant caiman), and Sarcosuchus all work well as 40 ft crocs.

Sauropods currently follow 24 HD Gargantuan, 48 HD colossal- since Colossal is supposed to start at 128 short tons, this may be a bit on the high side for diplodocid sauropods.

Still, it can work- given the fact that despite being slim, Huge diplodocids are still heavier on average than Huge theropods.

My current best guess for species for each category:

Diplodocids
Huge: 12 HD- Cetiosauriscus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Diplodocus carnegii
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Diplodocus hallorum
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Supersaurus, 115 ft Mammenchisaurus
Colossal: 48 HD- Amphicoelias

Macronarians, heavily built or primitive sauropods
Huge: 12 HD- Saltasaurus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Cetiosaurus, Euhelopus, Apatosaurus
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Barapasaurus, Brachiosaurus, Giraffatitan
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Sauroposeidon, Paralititan
Colossal: 48 HD- Bruhathkyosaurus, Argentinosaurus

This scheme seems to work OK- uses your size scaling system up to a point- but places Huge-and-a-half creatures midway between Huge and Gargantuan.

the Chunky Build system works quite well for whales- the largest reported sperm whales, the bowhead whales, and fin whales, all qualify as Colossal (being all comparable to Argentinosaurus in weight or higher, and the largest blue whales can be Colossal-and-a-half, with 60 HD.

For whales, I'd agree with trimming down the orca size a bit.

Average males and large-ish females work as 12 HD creatures, the males can be 18 HD creatures (huge-and-a-half- the T. rex of the sea.)

And the karate-killer whales sounds like a fun campaign concept- maybe the whale's tail slap should be more dangerous than the MM makes it.
 
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hamishspence

Adventurer
For "gracile creatures" in general, like crocs, slim theropods, etc, multiples of 5 work for the larger sizes, and midpoints (rounding down) are just about passable for the smaller ones.

2 HD: Medium
3 HD: Medium-and-a-half
5 HD: Large
7 HD: Large-and-a-half
10 HD: Huge
15 HD: Huge-and-a-half
20 HD: Gargantuan
30 HD: Gargantuan-and-a-half
40 HD: Colossal

Dromaeosaurs, being, in some cases, rather more heavily built than most theropods of their size (Utahraptor, what little there is of it, has massive leg bones, for example) might actually follow the Robust scale:

1 HD- Small
2 HD- Small-and-a-half (Velociraptor)
3 HD- Medium
4 HD- Medium-and-a-half (Deinonychus)
6 HD- Large
8 HD- Large-and-a-half (Utahraptor, Achillobaator)
12 HD- Huge
18 HD- Huge-and-a-half
etc.
 

Cleon

Hero
I'd have gone with 15 HD as the midpoint between 10HD Huge and 20HD Gargantuan for crocs, but otherwise, its good- smaller Deinosuchus work for 30 ft croc, largest specimens of Deinosuchus, Purussaurus (giant caiman), and Sarcosuchus all work well as 40 ft crocs.

Sauropods currently follow 24 HD Gargantuan, 48 HD colossal- since Colossal is supposed to start at 128 short tons, this may be a bit on the high side for diplodocid sauropods.

Still, it can work- given the fact that despite being slim, Huge diplodocids are still heavier on average than Huge theropods.

My current best guess for species for each category:

Diplodocids
Huge: 12 HD- Cetiosauriscus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Diplodocus carnegii
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Diplodocus hallorum
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Supersaurus, 115 ft Mammenchisaurus
Colossal: 48 HD- Amphicoelias

Macronarians, heavily built or primitive sauropods
Huge: 12 HD- Saltasaurus
Huge-and-a-half: 18 HD- Cetiosaurus, Euhelopus, Apatosaurus
Gargantuan: 24 HD- Barapasaurus, Brachiosaurus, Giraffatitan
Gargantuan-and-a-half: 36 HD- Sauroposeidon, Paralititan
Colossal: 48 HD- Bruhathkyosaurus, Argentinosaurus

This scheme seems to work OK- uses your size scaling system up to a point- but places Huge-and-a-half creatures midway between Huge and Gargantuan.

Well as I mentioned before, my current take on Sauropods uses a non-standard HD progression, where the HD size advancement slows down a bit at the larger sizes.

Small 2 HD
Medium 4 HD
Large 8 HD
Huge 16 HD
Gargantuan 25 HD
Colossal 36 HD
(Maximum) 48 HD

Hmm, I'm tempted to change the 48 HD version to a "Colossal plus" and add a few intermediaries:

Small - 2 HD, Str 13
Little - 3 HD, Str 15
Medium - 4 HD, Str 17
Big - 6 HD, Str 19
Large - 8 HD, Str 21
Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
Huge - 16 HD, Str 29
Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
Gargantuan - 25 HD, Str 37
Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
Colossal - 36 HD, Str 45
(Maximum) - 48 HD, Str 49

And the karate-killer whales sounds like a fun campaign concept- maybe the whale's tail slap should be more dangerous than the MM makes it.

Well making the tail more dangerous than the MM orca wouldn't be very difficult, since the SRD version doesn't even have a tail-slap attack.

Although you'd want a higher level version to make it really dangerous. Say a Gargantuan (16 HD magical beast) 8th level monk with Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) - that'd be 6d8+Str damage per unarmed blow, with lawful and magic ki strike. Such a black-belt orca would have a +22 BAB, so full-attacks at +30/+25/+20/+15 (or +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 with flurry of blows) assuming it has the average of 33 strength and no other attack bonuses - although it would probably have a better Strength through a combination of the elite character array, HD advancement, magical items and various feats and possibly magic fang type spell boosts from allies.

Not to mention it can have three two Epic Feats from its 24 Hit Dice.

Hmm, now I'll have to stat out a Black-Belt Killer Whale to complement a Orca Abbot with enough levels in Druid to cast awaken on its kinfolk.
 
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hamishspence

Adventurer
Small - 2 HD, Str 13
Little - 3 HD, Str 15
Medium - 4 HD, Str 17
Big - 6 HD, Str 19
Large - 8 HD, Str 21
Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
Huge - 16 HD, Str 29
Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
Gargantuan - 25 HD, Str 37
Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
Colossal - 36 HD, Str 45
(Maximum) - 48 HD, Str 49

This one looks pretty good for exceptionally robust/formidable animals- sauropods, whales, etc.

Maybe it could be used for chunky theropods- a T. rex with 20 HD?
Medium and Large sizes match those of the errataed Deinonychus and Utahraptor (called Megaraptor).

The gap between Large and Huge is 8 HD, between Huge and Gargantuan is 9 HD, between Gargantuan and Colossal is 11 HD and between Colossal and (Maximum) is 12 HD-

maybe (Maximum) can be Colossal+, with a larger base size (40 ft), and a Str jump to match. And there could be an intermediate size between the two at 42 HD, similar to Enormous, Very Large, Titanic, etc.

Most sauropods and whales would max-out at around 36 HD, with only the bigger blue whales being 48 HD and having a 40 ft base.

And that 36 HD would correspond to a bit lower weight than what the MM gives for Colossal- 80-100 tons, rather than 125 tons, if we want Argentinosaurus to be included.
 
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Cleon

Hero
This one looks pretty good for exceptionally robust/formidable animals- sauropods, whales, etc.

Maybe it could be used for chunky theropods- a T. rex with 20 HD?
Medium and Large sizes match those of the errataed Deinonychus and Utahraptor (called Megaraptor).

The gap between Large and Huge is 8 HD, between Huge and Gargantuan is 9 HD, between Gargantuan and Colossal is 11 HD and between Colossal and (Maximum) is 12 HD-

maybe (Maximum) can be Colossal+, with a larger base size (40 ft), and a Str jump to match. And there could be an intermediate size between the two at 42 HD, similar to Enormous, Very Large, Titanic, etc.

My original size schema ended at "Epic" for creatures with a 50 foot base like Devastation Vermin, with "Super-Colossal" as the intermediary step, if we add that in it could go something like.

Small - 2 HD, Str 13, 5 foot space
Little - 3 HD, Str 15
Medium - 4 HD, Str 17, 5 foot space
Big - 6 HD, Str 19
Large - 8 HD, Str 21, 10 foot space
Very Large - 12 HD, Str 25
Huge - 16 HD, Str 29, 15 foot space
Enormous - 20 HD - Str 33
Gargantuan - 25 HD, Str 37, 20 foot space
Titanic - 30 HD, Str 41
Colossal - 36 HD, Str 45, 30 foot space
Super-Colossal - 42 HD, Str 49 (40 foot space?)
Epic
- 48 HD, Str 53 (50 foot space?)
 

Cleon

Hero
Hmm, now I'll have to stat out a Black-Belt Killer Whale to complement a Orca Abbot with enough levels in Druid to cast awaken on its kinfolk.

Well I wasn't able to resist the urge to stat up a couple of higher-level awakened orcas, so here they are. I haven't bothered giving them magical equipment or listing all their SA and SQs under Combat.

EDIT: By the way, I used the SRD version of the various animals for this version, rather than an "improved" version. e.g. the abbot's Elasmosaurus animal companion is straight out of the MM, including its nigh-useless Toughness feats.
 
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Cleon

Hero
Elite Karate Killer Whales

Karate Orca Abbot
Awakened Elite Orca
10th level Druid, 4th level Monk
Huge Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 11d10+14d8+175 (298 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +6 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+36
Attack: Bite +26 melee (2d6+10) or unarmed strike +26 melee (3d6+7)
Full Attack: Bite +26 melee (2d6+10) or unarmed strike +26/+21/+16/+11 melee (3d6+7) or flurry of blows +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+7)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large)
Special Qualities: Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [+4 saves vs Fey], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8
Skills: Concentration +20, Heal +16, Jump +24, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (+27 without blindsight), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (+27 without blindsight), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +29
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run,
Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]
Epic Feats: Tenacious Magic (baleful polymorph)
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pod (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful neutral
Advancement: 12–15 HD (Huge); 16–29 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:

Combat

Animal Companion (Ex): The karate orca abbot has an Elasmosaurus as an animal companion:
Elasmosaurus (Huge Animal; Hit Dice 12d8+78 (132 hp); Init +2; Spd 20 ft., swim 50 ft.; Space/Reach 15 ft./10 ft.; AC 15 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13; BAB/Grapple +8/+24; Attack Bite +14 melee (2d8+12); Full Attack Bite +14 melee (2d8+12); SA —; SQ Evasion, link, share spells, low-light vision, scent; Alignment Always neutral; Saves Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +5; Abilities Str 27, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9; Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Toughness (2); Skills: Hide -4* (+4 in water), Listen +5, Spot +10, Swim +16; Bonus Tricks 2)
Spells (Sp): 6/5/5/4/4/3, Caster level 10, DC 16 plus spell level (17+level for Transformation spells).
0 levelguidance×2, resistance×2, detect magic, flare
1st levelcharm animal, cure light wounds, entangle, longstrider, speak with animals
2nd levelhold animal, barkskin, lesser restoration, owl's wisdom, warp wood
3rd levelgreater magic fang, neutralize poison, protection from energy, water breathing
4th levelair walk, control water, dispel magic, freedom of movement
5th levelbaleful polymorph (DC22), call lightning storm, stoneskin

Wild Shape (Su): This karate orca abbot prefers to wild shape into a Sea Eagle or Squid for scouting, a Large Shark for spying on Sahuagin, or a Giant Octopus for combat.
Sea Eagle Form (Small Magical Beast; Hit Dice 25 (298 hp); Init +3; Spd 20 ft., fly 90 ft. (average); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft. AC 21 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +1 natural), touch 20, flat-footed 18; BAB/Grapple +21/+16; Attack Talons +21 melee (1d4-1) or unarmed strike +21 melee (1d6-1); Full Attack 2 talons +21 melee (1d4-1) and bite +16 melee (1d4-1); or unarmed strike +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (1d6-1); or flurry of blows +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 melee (1d6-1); SA Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); SQ Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [+4 saves vs Fey], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; Saves Fort +21, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; Abilities Str 8, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]; Epic Feat: Tenacious Magic (baleful polymorph); Skills: Concentration +16, Heal +16, Jump +0, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (+27 without blindsight), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (+27 without blindsight), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +13)

Squid Form (Medium Magical Beast (Aquatic); Hit Dice 25 (298 hp); Init +4; Spd Swim 70 ft.; Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft. AC 23 (+4 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +3 natural), touch 20, flat-footed 19; BAB/Grapple +21/+22; Attack Arms +22 melee (0) or unarmed strike +22 melee (1d8+1); Full Attack Arms +22 melee (0) and bite +17 melee (1d6+1); or unarmed strike +22/+17/+12/+7 melee (1d8+1); or flurry of blows +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 melee (1d8+1); SA Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), improved grab, spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); SQ Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [+4 saves vs Fey], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; Saves Fort +20, Ref +20, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; Abilities Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]; Epic Feat: Tenacious Magic (baleful polymorph); Skills: Concentration +15, Heal +16, Jump +22, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (+27 without blindsight), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (+27 without blindsight), Survival +15, Tumble +20, Swim +23)

Large Shark Form (Large Magical Beast (Aquatic); Hit Dice 25 (298 hp); Init +3; Spd Swim 70 ft.; Space/Reach 10 ft./5 ft. AC 22 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +4 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 19; BAB/Grapple +21/+27; Attack Bite +21 melee (1d8+3) or unarmed strike +21 melee (2d6+2); Full Attack Bite +21 melee (1d8+3); or unarmed strike +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (2d6+2); or flurry of blows +20/+20/+15/+10/+5 melee (2d6+2); SA Flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); SQ Animal companion, blindsense 30 ft., blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, keen scent, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [+4 saves vs Fey], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; Saves Fort +21, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; Abilities Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]; Epic Feat: Tenacious Magic (baleful polymorph); Skills: Concentration +16, Heal +16, Jump +23, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (+27 without blindsight), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (+27 without blindsight), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +24)

Giant Octopus Form (Large Magical Beast (Aquatic); Hit Dice 25 (298 hp); Init +3; Spd 30 ft., swim 40 ft.; Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tentacle); AC 25 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +7 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 22; BAB/Grapple +21/+29; Attack Tentacle +24 melee (1d4+4) or unarmed strike +24 melee (2d6+4); Full Attack 8 tentacles +24 melee (1d4+4) and bite +19 melee (1d8+2); or unarmed strike +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (2d6+4); or flurry of blows +23/+23/+18/+13/+8 melee (2d6+4); SA Constrict 2d8+6, flurry of blows, ki strike (magic), improved grab, spells, unarmed strike, wild shape (4/day, Large); SQ Animal companion, blindsight 120 ft., evasion, hold breath, ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, nature sense, resist nature's lure [+4 saves vs Fey], slow fall 20 feet, still mind, trackless step, venom immunity, wild empathy, woodland stride; Saves Fort +21, Ref +19, Will +22 [+24 vs enchantments]; Abilities Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 22, Cha 8; Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Eschew Materials, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Natural Spell, Run, Spell Penetration, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]; Epic Feat: Tenacious Magic (baleful polymorph); Skills: Concentration +16, Heal +16, Jump +9, Knowledge (nature) +18, Listen +31* (+27 without blindsight), Spellcraft +17, Spot +31* (+27 without blindsight), Survival +15, Tumble +19, Swim +26)
Black Belt Orca
Awakened Elite Advanced Orca 8th level Monk
Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 16d10+8d8+216 (340 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: Swim 70 ft. (14 squares)
Armor Class: 25 (–4 size, +3 Dex, +6 Wisdom, +10 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+51
Attack: Bite +31 melee (3d6+19) or unarmed strike +31 melee (6d8+13)
Full Attack: Bite +31 melee (3d6+19) or unarmed strike +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (6d8+13) or flurry of blows +30/+30/+25/+20/+15 melee (6d8+13)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., evasion, fast healing 3, hold breath, ki strike (magic), low-light vision, purity of body, slow fall 40 ft., still mind, wholeness of body [16 hp/day]
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +19, Will +17 (+19 vs enchantment)
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 16, Con 28, Int 10, Wis 22, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +35, Listen +29* (+25 without blindsight), Move Silently +16, Spot +29* (+25 without blindsight), Swim +21, Tumble +16
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows (B), Endurance, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip (B), Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Run, Stunning Fist (B) [Fort DC 28]
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Fast Healing
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pod (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: None
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Advancement: 17–29 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment:
 

Cleon

Hero
Anyway, now I've got those Karate Orcas off my chest I'll try to drag this thread back to Prehistoric Beasts.

I've got some Therizinosaurs in a presentable condition, although I'm not sure they're quite finished.

The main problem is I can't quite settle on what augmentation (if any) to give their scythe like claws. Originally I went for a 19-20×3 critical but I was concerned that might be a bit too much, so I then wondered about giving them a Rend special attack doing an extra lot of claw damage if it hits a single target with twice (e.g. if a Therizinosaurus hits a target with both 3d6+10 claw attacks it does an additional 3d6+10, for 9d6+30 in total).

While I am tempted to give them both, I'm not sure whether that isn't a bit exaggerated.

At the moment I've just given them a ×3 critical, to allow for them impaling foes on their extra-long claws. That feels like a reasonable compromise.
 

Cleon

Hero
Therizinosaurs
The Therizinosauria are bizarre looking bipedal dinosaurs named for the three scythe-like claws that tip each of their long arms, said claw can be over a yard long in the biggest species. Therizinosaurs have a barrel-like body held in a semi-upright posture, a small head on a pretty long neck, and a moderately long tail. They have four-toed feet, but unlike most theropods all four toes face forward and touch the ground when the beast walks. At least some species were covered in feathers.

Therizinosaurs are herbivores, using their claws to tear down branches to reach shoots, leaves and fruit. They are not very swift, but are easily able to defend themselves with their formidable claws.

Therizinosaurus
Late Cretaceous (70 MYA)
Other Therizinosaurs Early-Late Cretaceous (130-65 MYA)
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 15d8+105 (172 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+29
Attack: Claw +20 melee (3d6+10/19-20×3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +20 melee (3d6+10/19-20×3)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 25, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +15, Spot +15, Survival +7
Feats: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Endurance, Improved Critical (claw), Weapon Focus (claw), Snatch
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-20 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:

A bizarre looking animal resembling an enormous ostrich more than three times as tall as a man. The beast is over forty feet long including its great lizard-like tail, and has a body covered with a thatch of long feathers. Instead of an ostrich's wings, it has eight foot long arms, with yard-long talons on the three fingers of each hand.

Therizinosaurus is one of the largest of the Therizinosaurs. A typical Therizinosaurus is between 33 and 40 feet long and weighs about 15000 pounds.

Combat
Therizinosaurus is not particularly aggressive, but will ferociously defend itself if threatened, tearing apart opponents with their immense claws.

Augmented Critical (Ex): A Therizinosaurus's claw attacks do triple damage on a confirmed critical.

Skills
An Therizinosaurus has a +4 racial bonus on Listen, Spot and Survival checks.

Segnosaurus
Late Cretaceous (95-90 MYA)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+16
Attack: Claw +12 melee (3d4+6/×3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +12 melee (3d4+6/×3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +12, Spot +12, Survival +6
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-14 HD (Large); 15-16 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:

A typical Segnosaurus is about 10 feet tall, and 20 feet long, weighing some 1500 pounds.

The above stats can also be used for the slightly smaller Erlikosaurus.

Neimongosaurus
Late Cretaceous (90 MYA)
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+12 (30 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Claw +6 melee (2d4+2/×3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (2d4+2/×3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +10, Spot +10, Survival +5
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Warm or temperate plains and forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-7 HD (Medium); 8-12 HD (Large);
Level Adjustment:

One of the smaller and more primitive species of Therizinosaur, a Neimongosaurus is roughly 7-8 feet long and weighs 150 pounds.
 

hamishspence

Adventurer
therizinosaurs

The therizinosaurs look pretty good- seeing as they are more upright than average theropods, and long in the arm as well, a reach equal to their space, as is given, looks pretty good.

The whale stats were interesting as well.

Apparently there are quite a lot of interesting prehistoric whales, but sadly only Basilosaurus appears in 3.5 (in the Frostburn book).

"Killer sperm whales" such as Zygophyseter and Brygmophyseter, which were midway between bull killer whales, and sperm whales, in size, had big teeth, and may have hunted large whales, in packs, might make for an interesting prehistoric "sea monster."

On size- and whether Colossal-and-a-half should get a 40 ft base and Colossal+ a 50 ft base- that might depend on if the creature gets both a bite/head slam attack and a tail slap, or not.

Baleen whales without a head attack, would work- especially if Colossal begins at 80 tons rather than 125. But with a head attack, even the Blue Whale is hard to justify as having a 50 ft base.

Without head attack, it would probably look something like this:

Short whales:
Pygmy Right Whale- Huge, 15 ft space, 10 ft tail slap
Small adult Right Whale- Gargantuan, 20 ft space, 15 ft tail slap
Big adult Right Whale- Colossal, 30 ft space, 20 ft tail slap
Big Bowhead Whale- Colossal-and-a-half, 40 ft space, 30 ft tail slap

Long whales:
Minke Whale- Huge, 15 ft space, 15 ft tail slap
Humpback Whale/Bryde's Whale- Gargantuan, 20 ft space, 20 ft tail slap
Sei Whale- Colossal, 30 ft space, 30 ft tail slap
Pygmy Blue Whale/Fin whale- Colossal-and-a-half, 40 ft space, 40 ft tail slap
Blue Whale- Colossal+, 50 ft space, 50 ft tail slap
 
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