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Message: <blockquote data-quote="brainstorm" data-source="post: 5095631" data-attributes="member: 45712">Screwhead, I implemented circular initiative a couple of sessions ago and it's helped slightly, but not enough.  Here is some detail, if it helps: Problem #1: The group is comprise of 12th level characters; 3 strikers, 1 controller, 1 leader, 2 defenders.  They do a lot of damage, impose a lot of conditions which hamper the opponents and can heal a lot of damage they take.  So to challenge this party, I need to have opponents that last long enough to get at least a couple of hits in and do enough damage to make the encounter a challenge (i.e., make them use healing surges).  The problem is, the fewer hp the monsters have, the faster they drop and less time they are around to do enough damage to make them a threat.  Upping the damage they do is the next logical step (which I've done), but if a monster only gets 3 rounds to act (due to the fewer HP) and they miss on 2 of the rounds, then they are not much of a threat.  So, the next logical step is to add more monsters (which I've done), but this means more monsters for them to take out (and me to run and track), which extends the combat.  So, the next logical step is to use more minions (which I've done).  Problem is, the controller takes minions out fairly effortlessly.  So, use the minions in waves (which I've done).  The controller, leader and one of the strikers use zones, walls and other powers that cause damage just by moving through or starting a round in and handle minions pretty efficiently.  So, the answer is use tactics (done that).  No, the answer is use traps and terrain (done that).  No, the answer is... and so on.  I am working way too hard to try and challenge the group and it is mostly because they have too many options available to them, I can't keep track of all the powers they have and so I can't design encounters that challenge them because, between the 7 of them, they can nerf just about anything I throw at them at their level.  I can't use higher level opponents (tried that) because then the PCs can't hit their defenses and the battle drags out that much longer. Problem #2: This is a social group, so they've always had a hard time focusing on the game, particularly if the combat is dragging out.  But even in D&D 3.5, we've never had combats that last so long consistently.  Sure, if they focused more on the game, were better prepared on their turns, etc., the encounter would be faster, but the reason we get togerther regularly is to socialize AND game, so I'm not going to harp on them because they want to chat about last week's South Park episode in between their turns.  Besides, their behavior hasn't changed in all of the iterations of D&D we've played, but avg length of combat encounters has, so the problem is with the game, not the players.   In my opinion, 4E went overboard on giving characters options.  It's now made the DM have to work harder (as if we didn't have to work hard enough as it was) to challenge the players instead of the players having to work to get through a challenge.  Mind you, this has been more of a problem from 6th level up to their current 12th level, because they had fewer options from 1st -5th level.  Having challenging encounters with reasonable durations was not a problem at low levels and it has not been a problem with my other group of 4 players, 3 of whom play in the larger group.</blockquote>

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