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<blockquote data-quote="MwaO" data-source="post: 7444697" data-attributes="member: 12749">That was too late.D&amp;D has a problem player — the guy who thinks he's awesome at D&amp;D tactics, because he does a lot of damage with simple actions and things die as a result. He always plays Fighters. He doesn't usually particularly like to role-play at all and often, groups work their way around that guy by letting him nod off during the role-playing sections of games. He never has Charisma skills as a result of it too.And that's usually not an issue. He makes a table work in low volume gaming areas or in home games. So here's what happened in 4e initially:He sucked. Fighter's really complicated and he didn't do as much damage as everyone else.Skill Challenges ran by initiative and some Skill Challenges were just extended Diplomacy+Intelligence checks. And he didn't have an option to just snooze or do a rational Strength guy action such as Athletics.That guy is never going to admit to sucking at tactics, especially when he's being forced to make Diplomacy checks and failing in a party with a Face PC. He's going to claim 4e feels like an MMO and is anti-roleplaying. And when the other problem player at such tables gets pissed off because he can't wave a hand and cast a spell to bypass skill challenges...and there's another system out there(PF)…So pointing out, &quot;Hey, here's a simple Fighter for those people who found the 1st Fighter too complicated&quot; isn't going to solve their issues. it is just going to annoy them. Especially when Slayer doesn't really do all that great at high levels, due to lack of multi-attacks and improperly scaling bonuses.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MwaO, post: 7444697, member: 12749"] That was too late. D&D has a problem player — the guy who thinks he's awesome at D&D tactics, because he does a lot of damage with simple actions and things die as a result. He always plays Fighters. He doesn't usually particularly like to role-play at all and often, groups work their way around that guy by letting him nod off during the role-playing sections of games. He never has Charisma skills as a result of it too. And that's usually not an issue. He makes a table work in low volume gaming areas or in home games. So here's what happened in 4e initially: He sucked. Fighter's really complicated and he didn't do as much damage as everyone else. Skill Challenges ran by initiative and some Skill Challenges were just extended Diplomacy+Intelligence checks. And he didn't have an option to just snooze or do a rational Strength guy action such as Athletics. That guy is never going to admit to sucking at tactics, especially when he's being forced to make Diplomacy checks and failing in a party with a Face PC. He's going to claim 4e feels like an MMO and is anti-roleplaying. And when the other problem player at such tables gets pissed off because he can't wave a hand and cast a spell to bypass skill challenges...and there's another system out there(PF)… So pointing out, "Hey, here's a simple Fighter for those people who found the 1st Fighter too complicated" isn't going to solve their issues. it is just going to annoy them. Especially when Slayer doesn't really do all that great at high levels, due to lack of multi-attacks and improperly scaling bonuses. [/QUOTE]

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