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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7445090" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, one thing is pretty true. A LOT of long-time D&amp;D players are poor tacticians, in an absolute sense. Other editions pretty much make the game about some form of cleverness, either in terms of gaming the build rules, or in terms of exploiting, or at least knowing well, the spell lists. The tactics that do exist are relatively obvious ones (focus fire, get surprise, use terrain to make it impossible for the other guy to attack you while you shoot him with a bow, etc.).So, a LOT of players found when they got to 4e that it was HARD to do well in fights. I know from my campaigns with players who mostly came from 3.x and 2.x that they didn't grasp how to coordinate their attacks well, nor understand what exactly a defender was for, etc. True 4e-style cooperation took a while to get figured out, like the first 5-8 levels of play usually. If you weren't 'into it' or got easily frustrated or were impatient, then it was likely you'd go elsewhere. Newbies had no preconceptions and just played. Either they did or didn't learn the tactics they needed, and it was all the same to them! Coupled with the loss of all their accumulated guru wisdom about how to game 3.x a lot of 4e hate was just sour grapes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7445090, member: 82106"] Well, one thing is pretty true. A LOT of long-time D&D players are poor tacticians, in an absolute sense. Other editions pretty much make the game about some form of cleverness, either in terms of gaming the build rules, or in terms of exploiting, or at least knowing well, the spell lists. The tactics that do exist are relatively obvious ones (focus fire, get surprise, use terrain to make it impossible for the other guy to attack you while you shoot him with a bow, etc.). So, a LOT of players found when they got to 4e that it was HARD to do well in fights. I know from my campaigns with players who mostly came from 3.x and 2.x that they didn't grasp how to coordinate their attacks well, nor understand what exactly a defender was for, etc. True 4e-style cooperation took a while to get figured out, like the first 5-8 levels of play usually. If you weren't 'into it' or got easily frustrated or were impatient, then it was likely you'd go elsewhere. Newbies had no preconceptions and just played. Either they did or didn't learn the tactics they needed, and it was all the same to them! Coupled with the loss of all their accumulated guru wisdom about how to game 3.x a lot of 4e hate was just sour grapes. [/QUOTE]

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